On quiry we look upon as an indispensable pre-cess, send an expedition to Abyssinia to liminary. I have been in communication with accomplish the object we had in view. the War Department and with the India Office Parliament was prorogued on the 21st of as to the best mode of proceeding. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India has August, and it was not until the 19th of telegraphed to the Indian Government to send August that, having carefully considered over an officer or officers on whom they can rely the information we had received from to meet Colonel Merewether at Aden, and with India, we came to the determination him to examine minutely the points on which information is necessary. I do not wish to antici- to send out an expedition to Abyssinia. pate the result of that inquiry; but I hope that Having come to that determination on the the House will be of opinion that in making it we 19th of August, at the earliest possible have only done our duty. On the one hand, opportunity-on the 21st-we communiwe cannot consent to leave these men to their cated that determination to Parliament. I fate without some attempt to rescue them. the other hand, by precipitation and by acting trust, therefore, that your Lordships will in the dark we should be running the risk of see that there was no desire on the part involving ourselves in great calamities, and of Her Majesty's Government to keep might bring on ourselves not only political, but back from Parliament their determination also the possibility of military disaster. It is to send an expedition to Abyssinia in possible that when King Theodore sees that we are in earnest, he may take warning, and release order to procure the release of the prisoners, the prisoners without giving us further trouble. and that there was no contradiction beWe may hope for this; but we ought not to count tween the language held by my noble Relaupon it. If he should not, the responsibility rests tive on the 26th of July, and the subsewith us of deciding upon our future course. must be guided to a great degree by the reports quent determination on the part of the we receive from those whom we employ to make Government to send out the expedition. the investigation to which I have referred. I do Having come to the determination to send not think we should be called upon even now to out the expedition, what was our next give any pledge on the part of the Government as to an expedition, unless it is found to be practi- step? And here I may mention that some cable with only a reasonable expenditure of men time ago a noble Lord who has spoken this It may be said, Send it to the evening (Lord Houghton), and whom I coast of Africa, that will be enough.' Possibly, now see opposite to me, expressed his opithat may be enough; but if you send an expedi- nion at a scientific meeting-that of the tion to the coast and that fails, you cannot rest Geographical Society-that Her Majesty's Government had not taken proper precautions for obtaining information which would be necessary to enable them to make the proper preparation for securing the success of the expedition. and means. We there, you must proceed further, you are free to House will leave the decision where the re- Now, my Lords, it has been said that this LORD HOUGHTON: What I said was, that unless Her Majesty's Government had used every means in their power by conwhether there were any other means of sulting distinguished geographers as to obtaining their object before this costly expedition was sent out, they would not have taken all the precautions that were necessary. THE EARL OF DERBY: Very well; the noble Lord did not make a statement; he merely made a suggestion; but the purport of his observations was such as to cause the President, Sir Roderick Murchison, to rise and state that from his own personal knowledge the greatest pains had been taken to obtain information likely to promote the objects of the expedition, and that every care had been bestowed in preparing whatever was required for its use. When we determined upon sending out the expedition we also determined for various reasons, with which I need not now trouble your Lordships, Imperial revenue. There is one more point connected with this subject to which I must refer. The noble Earl opposite has expressed a hope that he would hear from Her Majesty's Government an emphatic declaration as to the objects of the expe that it should take its departure from India. We also determined that the command of the expedition should not be divided, but should be placed in the hands of one person; and as such a position would be one of heavy responsibility, we selected with the consent, and I believe ondition. I certainly thought that nothing the suggestion, of the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), as the most proper person to take the chief command of the expedition an officer who has obtained the highest reputation in India-namely, Sir Robert Napier, on whose strategical ability and in whose talents we felt we could place the most entire reliance. It was left to him to name the force and the equipments he would require to enable the expedition to effect its object. A full statement of all matters of detail connected with the expedition your Lordships will find in the blue-book which I shall have the honour of laying upon your Lordships' table in the course of this evening in pursuance of the statement in Her Majesty's Speech, from which you will see that the greatest possible pains have been taken that the expedition shall not go out unprovided with anything likely to conduce to the health and comfort of the troops. The expedition was to be sent out from India. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Russell) has expressed an opinion that as its objects were entirely of an Imperial character, therefore the expense should be entirely borne by England. Now, that is the precise ground on which we have advised Her Majesty to call her Parliament together. I need scarcely tell your Lordships that, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, it was absolutely necessary that Parliament should be called together at the earliest possible moment, to give its assent to the course we thought fit to adopt in sending out the expedition. It has been supposed that there is no power on the part of the Crown to employ Indian troops for Imperial pur- I must now turn to one or two other poses, except in India itself, but that subjects, which I shall touch upon as briefly is a misapprehension. The prohibition as possible consistently with their importthat exists merely extends to the Crown ance. In the first place, the noble Lord applying any portion of the revenue of who has just sat down (Lord Houghton) India to external war, whereby the con- has expressed something like an objection trol of a war might be withdrawn from to the paragraph in the Queen's Speech Parliament. We do not propose to impose which expresses a hope that His Ima single farthing of the cost of this expedi-perial Majesty the Emperor of the French tion upon the revenue of India. India will may find himself enabled to withdraw continue, as before, to pay for the troops the French troops at as early a period as if they were in India in the service of as possible, and thereby remove any the Crown; but every expense attendant possible ground of misunderstanding beupon the expedition will be borne by the tween His Majesty's Government and could be more emphatic than the language of the Speech from the Throne upon this point, which declares that the expedition has been sent out for the purpose of obtaining the release of the prisoners, and for that purpose alone. If, however, by doing so I can render these words still more emphatic, I will now declare that it is the firm intention of Her Majesty's Government that nothing further than the release of the prisoners shall be attempted by the expeditionary force, and that that object being accomplished, that force will at once retire from Abyssinia. Suggestions for occupying Abyssinia for sanatorial and other purposes-God knows what-have been made to Her Majesty's Government; but it has never crossed our minds to go one step further than to obtain the release of the prisoners. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Lyveden) has made a slight error in stating that it has been suggested that we should occupy Abyssinia for the purpose of protecting the Red Sea. Your Lordships are doubtless aware that there lies between Abyssinia and the Red Sea a large tract of territory which does not belong to the King of Abyssinia, and therefore the occupation of Abyssinia will not enable us in any way to protect the Red Sea. [Lord LYVEDEN explained that this was not his suggestion.] I think I have now said all that is necessary upon this subject-as to the course the Government have pursued; as to the understanding upon which the expedition has been sent out; and as to the preparations that have been made for securing the comfort and the safety of the troops. that of the King of Italy. Now, my concert with the other Powers, to join in a Lords, I am happy to find by the general Conference for the settlement of Speech of His Imperial Majesty, which this question; but that invitation they was delivered yesterday, that His Ma- have neither accepted nor declined. Her jesty's views upon this question entirely Majesty's Government would be most coincide with the hopes which have been happy to second the efforts of the Emperor expressed by Her Majesty's Government, to restore peace and to secure Italy against and that he sees the time approaching further complications, and on personal when the French troops may be with- grounds I am bound to say that we should drawn from Italian soil. The noble Earl deem it a most satisfactory thing to be who opened the debate (Earl Russell) enabled in the slightest degree to relieve has commented upon the terms of the the Emperor of the French from any emConvention of September, and has ex- barrassment he may feel from the state of pressed his opinion with regard to various his own country in return for the cordial parts of it, and particularly the arrange- friendship and the goodwill which he has ment whereby the Papal Government always exhibited towards this country. might employ mercenary troops. I, how- But, before accepting the invitation to a ever, may say that Her Majesty's Go- Conference, various subjects required to be vernment were no parties to that Con- taken into consideration. First, is the vention, and that therefore it is not their Conference acceded to, and will its deterduty, nor that of any British statesman mination be accepted by the two Powers sitting in his place in Parliament, to com- mainly concerned-Italy and the Pope? ment upon the terms of that Convention, To call for a Conference to arrange the with which this country has nothing what- affairs of two countries, neither of which ever to do.. The Convention was between concurs in being represented, and neither France and Italy, and in my opinion of which holds itself bound by the decision those countries alone are concerned with that may be arrived at, appears to me, my it. Nor, my Lords, do I think it neces- Lords, a perfect waste of diplomatic energy sary-nor do Her Majesty's Government and ability. But, again, have we any think it necessary-to express any opinion reasonable prospect-where the points of whatever upon the policy adopted by the divergence are so great as between the Emperor of the French in despatching Papal programme and the Italian prothe expedition to Rome. The Emperor of gramme-of having to the Conference a the French, no doubt, felt himself bound practical basis on which its proceedings by the terms of the Convention to protect may be founded? To call for a Conthe Papal territory, not against the popu- ference of the Powers without any basis lation of the Papal States, nor against the on which they should proceed, simply to Italian Government; but against certain discuss the affairs of Italy and the Pope, Italian invaders who had managed to would be only launching on an intermi elude the vigilance of the Italian Govern-nable sea of difficulty, which could afford ment. But that object having been effected-a perfectly legitimate object I may venture to say on the part of the Emperor-notwithstanding that Her Majesty's Government do not feel called upon to express any opinion upon the policy of that measure, it was perfectly legitimate for Her Majesty in her Speech from the throne to express a hope that all ground of a misunderstanding between the French and Italian Governments may be prevented by the withdrawal of the French troops, whose continued presence in Italy must be I now turn, my Lords, to the next a source of jealousy to the Italian people paragraph in Her Majesty's Speech, which and of additional embarrassment to that treats of the Fenian conspiracy, with reGovernment. The noble Lord has also ference to which I heard with great regret expressed a hope that no hasty decision the noble Earl (Earl Russell), in commentwill be come to by Her Majesty's Go-ing upon it, cast some imputation on the vernment with reference to the proposed Government and on the local authorities Conference on Italian affairs. Her Ma- for what he considered great remissness in jesty's Government have been invited, in not having taken more complete precau no definite prospect of improvement. Therefore, unless these questions were satisfactorily answered, I confess I cannot see any advantage in entering into a Conference of so vague a character. That, in point of fact, was the answer we sent to the invitation-that we should first know whether the consent of the two parties mainly interested had been obtained; and next, what definite basis would be submitted for the consideration of the Conference. tions. Now, in the first place, whatever, of which they have to complain, but the degree of blame there be, if any-which I avowed distinct object is to upset the Godo not admit-it did not attach to the vernment of the Queen in her dominions Government, because it was entirely at- and to constitute an Irish Republic. That tributable to the course pursued by the is a distinctly treasonable object, and I local police of Manchester. But the noble must say there is a ludicrous side to it, Earl greatly misapprehends, and therefore because the very idea of an Irish Republic misrepresents, the course which was pur- is one that to any man who knows that sued. The noble Earl says the Fenian country and the condition of its populaprisoners were left under the protection of tion must appear entirely ridiculous, and three policemen only. Now, that was by there is no possibility of any such a scheme, no means the case. They were sent to under any circumstances, being carried prison specially guarded by twelve police- into effect. I am as satisfied as of anymen, some of whom were on the van and thing in the world that if an Irish Reothers were following in cabs for the pur-public could be established and every pose of affording protection. But certainly, it did not enter into the conception of any of the authorities that an attack would be made, in broad daylight, in the middle of the town of Manchester, of so determined a character as that which took place, and consequently the police were only armed with their ordinary weapons, and were not in sufficient force to meet the forty or fifty men who made the attack armed with revolvers and quite prepared to take life for the purpose of effecting their object. I do not think, therefore, that the police of Manchester are liable to the charge of remissness in duty which the noble Ear! brings against them. EARL RUSSELL: They had a telegram from Dublin, had they not, informing them that a rescue would be attempted? THE EARL OF DERBY: No doubt there was a telegram from Dublin to Manchester to say that a rescue of the prisoners would be attempted, and that therefore it was desirable that extra precautions should be taken. But those precautions were taken in a very large increase of police in attendance on the van. Certainly no information reached the authorities which led them to apprehend so desperate and bloody an attack. My Lords, I ought not to say anything, more especially under present circumstances, when four men are lying under sentence of death-I ought not to say anything to aggravate the crime of this Fenian conspiracy; but, at the same time, I must protest in the strongest terms against those who, in the public press or elsewhere, have assumed that those outrages-those cowardly and dastardly outrages are to be classed in the category of political offences, and therefore to be treated differently from murders ordinarily committed. In the first place, the object of this Fenian conspiracy indefinite, reckless, hopeless-is not the removal of any grievance, not the redress of any evil British soldier withdrawn from Ireland My Lords, I do not think it necessary now to deal with those measures which Her Majesty's Government announce their Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente, and Ordered to be Presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. The LORD REDESDALE appointed, Nemine Dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session. COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES-Appointed. SUB-COMMITTEE FOR THE JOURNALSAppointed. APPEAL COMMITTEE-Appointed. intention of bringing before Parliament,, that on this, the first day of the Session, nor will I follow the noble Earl into his there is entire unanimity among us. discussion of the general principles of the Reform Bill which was carried last Session in reference to England. That Reform Bill, he seems to think, ought not to be introduced for Scotland and Ireland. I am not prepared to enter into any discussion with regard to the merits of those Bills. The noble Earl will have an earlier opportunity than last year of discussing the merits of the Scotch and Irish Bills; and in the meantime, though greatly indebted to him for the arguments by which he suggests I might vindicate them, I must be permitted to use my own discre tion and to use my own arguments when I bring them forward. I will not deal with the other topics adverted to in the Speech. The question of Education, no doubt, is one that requires the most serious consideration of Parliament. The circumstances of the three portions of the Kingdom are very different in regard to it, and it may be necessary to deal with each in a different manner and at a different time. For my own part, I agree with my noble Friend behind me (Lord Hylton) in regard to education in England; it requires much more information than we possess; and I cannot but feel that the time is hardly ripe for coming to a definite conclusion in regard to it. Though we have ample in formation as to assisted schools and some unassisted schools, yet, with regard to that large portion of the population absolutely without education at all, we stand in need of much more information than we possess before we can safely come to a conclusion on the whole subject. The question of education for Ireland is under the consideration of the Commission, with reference to the appointment of which considerable difficulty has been experienced, owing to the reluctance of the Roman Catholics of Ireland to take any part in assisting the Government to come to a careful and un House adjourned at Eight o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, November 19, 1867. The House met at half after One of the clock. A Message from The LORDS COMMIS- "MR. SPEAKER, NEW WRITS DURING THE RECESS. Mr. SPEAKER acquainted the House that, biased investigation on the subject, and during the Recess, he had issued Warrants also from the lamented death of the Earl for New Writs, for Galway County, v. of Rosse, who was so universally respected, Lord Dunkellin, deceased; for Bradford, and who from his singularly conciliatory. Henry Wickham Wickham, esquire, deceased; for Rutland, v. Hon. Gilbert Henry Heathcote, called up to the House of Peers; for Leicester County (Southern Division), v. Charles William Packe, esquire, deceased; for Manchester, v. Edward James, esquire, deceased. and discreet course would have been a most efficient president. My Lords, I PRIVILEGES. Ordered, That a Committee of Privileges |