MR. REARDEN said, that a Court of Appeal in criminal cases could not do harm, and might prevent a judicial murder. The establishment of such a court would give satisfaction to many persons who thought that capital punishment should be abolished altogether. MR. NEWDEGATE: Mr. Speaker-In reply to the hon. Member for Dundalk (Sir George Bowyer) I beg to say, that whatever opinion he may entertain with respect to my view of the abuse of an extended prerogative, no one who knows anything about the hon. Baronet doubts that he is in favour of the establishment of absolute power in Government. It is in a different sense that I shall endeavour to answer the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Gathorne Hardy). He appears to me to have used several arguments that support my case. Supposing these memorials, to which he has referred, are of the libellous character he has described, whilst many of the signatures attached to them are fictitious, is that a reason why this House should be kept in ignorance of the fact or of the proceedings to which those resort who attempt to interfere by such means with the administration of justice? One fact which I believe would come out if the information I ask for were granted is this-that it is only a small number of persons who create the greater part of the pressure that is brought to bear upon the Home Office, persons who are ever ready to interfere. I know that the system has grown up in recent years. There are persons, there is an organization, employed in beseeching jurymen the instant they leave the box to sign memorials in favour of reversing the effect of the verdict which they have just given. There is a regular machinery at work for this very purpose. Let not the House imagine that this is likely to be a small evil. I have here the authority of M. de Tocqueville, and others, cited by Lieber, that in the United States of America the abuse of the privilege of pardon had, until the matter was taken up by the State Legislatures, grown to the most frightful proportions; and it appears to me that, as we have copied the system of prison discipline and penal legislation which the Americans first adopted, we are bound to guard against the evils against which, those who first tried it, have had to provide. Then the right hon. Gentleman says that the number of sentences of penal servitude for life are not so many as they were. And why is this? Because it is notorious that the present system of separate confinement cannot be carried out for life with safety to either the intellect or bodily health of the prisoner. The present system of prison discipline does not admit of long sentences, and that is one reason why many of our Judges do not pronounce them. I am grateful to the House for hearing me at such length on this occasion. I yield to the opinion of the Home Secretary, that this Motion will not accomplish my object, and therefore, with the permission of the House, I will withdraw it, but upon the understanding that I shall seek other means, either by appointment of a Select Committee, or in some other manner, which may induce the House to turn its attention to that which is really a growing evil in the Midland Counties, trusting that the wisdom of Parliament may discover some remedy. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. RAILWAY AND GAS SHARES BILL. LEAVE. FIRST READING. MR. WALDEGRAVE LESLIE, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill "to amend the law in respect of the Sale and Purchase of Shares in Railway and Gas Companies," said, it resembled very nearly the Bill affecting the sale and purchase of bank shares, brought forward by the hon. the necessity for such a measure, he might Member for York (Mr. Leeman). To show refer to the City Article of The Times of November 28, which stated— "In the railway-market the daily increase of distrust continues, and after regular hours this 72, went to 70 to 71 for the next half-monthly evening Caledonian, which left off yesterday at settlement. Midland, also, at 110 to, showed a further fall of nearly 2 per cent, although the traffic returns of that line for the week present and North-Western line likewise show an increase the large increase of £7,547. Those of the London of £7,130, but in that stock, too, there has been a fall of 1 per cent. At the same time, the extent to which the cause of depreciation is due to spefact that a rate of from 20 to 24 per cent per culative operations has been exemplified by the annum has been paid to-day for the loan of Caledonian Stock until the next half-monthly settlement, while 9 per cent has been paid for Midland and Lancashire and Yorkshire, and 6 per cent for Brighton." The railway "bearing" was then upon the Caledonian Railway; but it was reported that other lines were to be taken in turn. Motion agreed to. Bill to amend the Law in respect of the sale and purchase of Shares in Railway and Gas Companies, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WALDE GRAVE-LESLIE, Mr. GOLDNEY, and Mr. GRAHAM, CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL. On Motion of Mr. HARDCASTLE, Bill for the abolition of Church Rates, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HARDCASTLE, Mr. BAINES, and Mr. GILPIN. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 21.] CHURCH RATES REGULATION BILL. On Motion of Mr. HUBBARD, Bill for the Regulation of Church Rates, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HUBBARD and Mr. BERESFORD HOPE. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 22.] House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock, till Thursday. HOUSE OF LORDS, Wednesday, December 4, 1867. MINUTES.-PUBLIC BILLS-Second ReadingDrainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (3); Totnes, &c. Writs (7); East London Museum Site (2). TOTNES, &c. WRITS BILL. (The Earl of Derby.) (No. 7.) SECOND READING. necessary to issue a writ for the election Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a (according to Order); Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow. EAST LONDON MUSEUM SITE BILL. (The Lord President.) (NO. 2.) SECOND READING. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH, in moving that the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills be dispensed with, in order that this Bill might be now read a second time, explained that its object was to remove a technical difficulty in the way of requiring a site for this Museum, in the construction of which it was intended to spend £5,000 during the coming year. The Standing Order which it was desired to suspend directed that, in reference to such a Bill, it should be laid before the Attorney General, and that he should report upon it. Motion agreed to. Standing Orders relating to Private Order of the Day for the Second Read- Bills considered, and dispensed with. ing read. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." -(The Earl of Derby.) THE EARL OF DERBY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the object of the Bill was merely to remedy an oversight in the Reform Act of the last Session. It was enacted by the 12th section, that from and after the end of this present Parliament the four boroughs reported against shall respectively cease to return any Member or Members to serve in Parliament; and by the 60th section it was provided that in the event of any vacancy in the representation of any constituency, or of the calling a new Parliament before the 1st of January, 1869, the election shall take place in the same manner as if the Act had not been passed; except that the four boroughs disfranchised by the Act shall not return Members to the New Parliament. The wording of these clauses left it doubtful whe ther, in the event of a vacancy occurring in any one of these four boroughs during the existing Parliament, it would not be Bill read 2 (according to Order), and committed for To-morrow; and Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with. House adjourned at a quarter past HOUSE OF LORDS, Consolidated Fund Thursday, December 5, 1867. Report-Sales of Reversions* (5); Drainage and * Third Reading-Totnes, &c. Writs (7), and passed. RAILWAYS COMMUNICATION BETWEEN DRIVERS AND GUARDS. QUESTION. ALDERLEY LORD STANLEY OF asked the noble Duke the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a measure to provide that there should be means of communication between the drivers and guards of railway trains? THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, that the subject had been under the consideration of the Board of Trade, and during the autumn experiments had been made on various lines of railway throughout the country, with the view of establishing some system of communication between the guard and the driver. These experiments were to be continued till the close of the year, when the results would be laid before the Board of Trade. There were difficulties in the matter, but the Board hoped to overcome them. The Government would endeavour, if possible, to carry out the object to which the recommendations of the Committee of last year were directed, though he did not think the mode of dealing with the matter which had at that time been suggested was the best one. METROPOLITAN STREETS ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL-(No. 8.) (The Lord Clinton.) COMMITTEE. REPORT. House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported, without Amend ment. Report considered. THE EARL OF DERBY: I have to submit to your Lordships' consideration a clause of which I have not given notice, but to which I hope, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, there will be no objection. Your Lordships are aware that the other evening the metropolis was deprived of a very important adjunct to the public convenience by the withdrawal of all cabs from the streets after four o'clock. That was done in consequence of the dissatisfaction of the cab-proprietors and cab-drivers, directed principally against one of the regulations in the Metropolitan Streets Act of last Session. I think it a matter of great regret that those persons should take the course they did, in order to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to what they consider a great grievance; because it was a proceeding likely to throw great difficulties in the way of the Government in proposing an alteration of the Act. But I must say that a meeting was held the same evening, numerously attended by cab-proprietors and drivers, which was characterized by great moderation and great good temper; and the result of that meeting was that a deputation waited on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and laid before him their views and their complaints. The principal grievance of which the cab-proprietors complain, and which appeared to my right hon. Friend, as it does to me, to be a fair and legitimate ground, if not of actual complaint, at least one requiring further investigation and consideration, was that in addition to the very heavy duties which they now pay, amounting to £19 or £20 a year, upon each cab, an additional burden is now thrown upon them which is not inflicted upon other carriages-namely, the expenditure involved in carrying lamps. The provision to that effect is found in the Act of last Session, which contained a vast variety of details-it being a great object with both Houses of Parliament that some remedy should be applied to the serious obstructions existing in the streets of the metropolis-and it is possible that some of the details may have passed with out that consideration to which they were fairly entitled. But, as far as I am aware, I believe there were not during the passing of the Bill, any complaints on the part of the cab-drivers and proprietors on this particular point. Nevertheless, there certainly is a fair ground of complaint in the additional charge thrown upon them without any alleviation on their burdens. They further complain that the power of en forcing this regulation is left, to a great extent, discretionary with the Police Commissioners, who are to fix the hours during which lamps are to be carried. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department felt that their statement involved matter which required further consideration, and therefore he proposes to introduce a clause-with which, I understand, the persons interested are perfectly satisfied-namely, to transfer the discre tionary power now vested by the Act in the Commissioners of Police to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and to provide that no regulations as to lamps under this Act shall be issued without the approval of the Secretary of State. THE EARL OF DERBY: The noble and learned Lord must be aware that the introduction of such provisions as he contemplates would be impossible now, and would simply have the effect of preventing the Bill being passed before the Recess. That will afford my right hon. Friend an hoped their Lordships, when the Comopportunity of fully investigating the sub-mittee was appointed, would remember ject; and I may add that I believe it is that the regulations affected one class the intention of my right hon. Friend, as alone. soon as Parliament meets again, to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to investigate the whole case of the cabdrivers and cab-proprietors of the metropolis. With this explanation, I hope your Lordships will have no objection to sanction the clause, which provides that no regulations shall be made with regard to the carriage of lamps by hackney carriages under the Act of last Session except with the approval of one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, that when the Bill was before the Select Committee of their Lordships' House, no objection was made to the proposal with respect to lamps. If, however, the change proposed would effect a settlement of the question that was regarded as satisfactory by the parties interested, he should not interpose in any way. But the obligation imposed by the Act was one that in itself seemed not unreasonable, and he hoped it would not be lost sight of in any future arrangements on the subject. LORD ROMILLY said, he did not mean that the question should be dealt with now, but at a future time. THE EARL OF DERBY: The noble and learned Lord has undoubtedly raised a very fit subject for consideration. But as he has mentioned one little fact, there is another little fact that I will mention. At this moment the Corporation of Liverpool have introduced a by-law for carrying into effect the very proposal which he now makes-namely, that cab-proprietors shall be allowed to charge what they like, provided only that they put the fare outside their cabs; and the whole of the cabproprietors of Liverpool are at this moment on strike against that by-law. LORD LYVEDEN regretted that the question of the lighting of cabs should have been taken out of the hands of the Commissioners of Police, who knew what was best for the public safety, and transferred to the Home Secretary, who was necessarily less conversant with the subject. The cabmen had undoubtedly cause for complaint; but the true cause was the high charges to which they were subjected, and the low fares they received. Lights would be a protection to the public, and of that protection, according to the noble Earl's statement, they would now be deprived. LORD ROMILLY said, the only satisfactory settlement of the cab question would be to allow the cab-drivers to charge whatever they pleased-subject only to this condition, that they should put outside their cabs a table of the fares they charged. The whole system of regulating the fares of hackney carriages was a remnant of barbarous times; for competition would apply equally to that case as to anything else in obtaining for the public a supply of the best article at reasonable rates. Omnibuses, for instance, might charge any price they pleased, but they THE EARL OF DERBY: The public have found it to their own interest to keep down not been deprived of anything. The effect their charges. All great writers and poli- of the clause now introduced can only be tical economists were unanimous in think-to postpone action, at the outside, for the ing that the fact of legislating as to the next three months. Meanwhile, matters fares of hackney carriages was as great a remain precisely in the same position as mistake as could be committed. In illus- they were before. tration of his meaning he might state a little fact. At one time a society of great | political economists, whose meetings were attended, among others, by Mr. Ricardo, Sir James Mackintosh, Mr. Mill, Mr. M'Culloch, and Mr. Malthus, met together to discuss nice questions of political economy; and it was said of them that the only question upon which they were ever unanimous was the impolicy of putting any limitations upon hackney carriages. He VOL. CXC. [THIRD SERIES.] Motion agreed to; Clause added to the Bill. Bill to be read 3a To-morrow, and to be printed as amended. (No. 8.) ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION. Paragraph of the Queen's Speech relating to Abyssinia read— THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I can assure you that my object in moving U that the paragraph in the Queen's Message | expense. I know that we might with should be read is not in the slightest much less difficulty, and undoubtedly with degree to limit the range which any of much more certainty, have conducted an your Lordships may take in the discussion that may arise on the present Motion; but it is for the purpose of explaining why I do not propose to go back to any previous proceedings connected with this subject, but limit myself to a few remarks upon the Resolution to which I am about to ask your Lordships' assent. My Lords, we are invited by a communication from the Commons to endorse their concurrence in the necessity of an expedition to Abyssinia, and their readiness to co-operate with Her Majesty in her endeavour to release her subjects from captivity, and vindicate the honour of her Crown. The questions arising out of this were, in the first place, is it expedient that the expedition should be sent from India; and, if so, whether it is competent for the Government to avail themselves of any portion of the revenues of India for the purposes of that expedition; and supposing them to be competent, what proportion of the revenues of India ought in fairness to be applied in that way? A further question arises as to the mode in which Parliament should provide for the necessary expenditure; but that question will be dealt with by your Lordships when considering the Motion which stands next upon the Paper-the Income Tax Bill. The question is one which mainly belongs to the House of Commons, and though your Lordships may give a negative to that Bill, you have no power to make any Amendment on it. The first question for our consideration, then, is supposing an expedition to Abyssinia is necessary, is it expedient to send it from India? It is singular that the question as to the expediency of sending the expedition from India has never been raised in the House of Commons, but has been assumed as a matter of course. The motives, however, for so sending it are very clear. In the first place-more especially at the present time-troops can be better spared from India than from Her Majesty's forces in the United Kingdom. In the next place, the base of operations, being necessarily on the Red Sea, is much more convenient of access from India than from this country. When I say that the base of operations is necessarily on the Red Sea, I should explain that if the invasion of Abyssinia had been attempted from any other quarter it would have exposed us to much misconception and have materially increased the expedition up the Nile, and I believe the Viceroy would not only have offered us no opposition, but would have been only too. happy to co-operate with us. But all who know anything of Abyssinia know that any invasion from the Egyptian side would have at once combined against us all those semi-civilized and semi-Christian tribes who are at present in a state of revolt against King Theodore; for they would immediately believe we had come with the concurrence, if not in the interest, of their hereditary enemies-the inhabitants of Egypt. Apart from all other reasons, this is strong enough for making the attempt from the Red Sea, and if from the Red Sea, then from India. Another consideration in favour of starting from India, is that the troops there are better fitted to endure the climate of Abyssinia than men fresh from England. Colonel Merewether, our Resident at Aden, has expressed his firm conviction from the first that it would be absolutely necessary to adopt this course, and never thought of anything else but an expedition from India. As I have said before, the House of Commons have never entertained any question on the subject, but took it for granted that the expedition was to proceed from India. Then, my Lords, arises the question whether we are entitled to avail ourselves of the Indian revenue, subject to the consent of Parlia ment, for the purposes of this expedition. That question depends upon the provisions of the India Act of 1858; and although I called your Lordships' attention to this point, upon the first night of the Session, I may be permitted to notice what took place in your Lordships' House when the particular clause in question was under discussion. When the Bill left the Commons there was a clause which provided that it should not be competent for Her Majesty's Government to make use of the troops of India for any foreign service, except under specified circumstances, otherwise than with the consent of Parliament. That clause was subsequently so altered as to create some confusion, and I had the honour of moving in your Lordships' House the clause as it now stands. I at the time said the object was not to prevent Her Majesty from making the same use of Indian troops which she could make of any other troops; but to prevent the charge of a war being thrown upon the revenues of India, |