POOR LAW-WALSALL WORKHOUSE. QUESTION. In answer to Mr. C. FORSTER, MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, a correspondence had passed between the Inspector of the district and the Poor Law Board respecting the statements published in The Lancet in connection with the Walsall workhouse. The papers were completed, and if the hon. Gentleman was inclined to move for them, there would be no objection to produce them. ARCHITECTURAL REMAINS IN INDIA. QUESTION. MR. LAYARD asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether any recent steps have been taken towards preserving the numerous ancient architectural remains of public buildings and other monuments in India; and, whether he will lay on the table of the House copies of any documents lately issued by himself or the Governor General of India relating to this subject? SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, some despatches had been received from the Government of India on this interesting subject, and there had also been a correspondence with the Department of Science and Art at South Kensington. The papers were hardly in a fit state to lay before the House; but when the correspondence was completed they could be produced. FOREIGN OFFICE AND THEIR AGENTS ABROAD.-QUESTION. SIR PERCY BURRELL asked the Foreign Secretary, Whether Her Majesty's Government will adopt effective measures to deter subordinate Agents from disobeying the orders which they receive from the Foreign Office, so that in future impunity might not confirm them in a course of disobedience such as in the case of Consul Cameron appeared likely to have been a main cause of involving this country in a war with Abyssinia? LORD STANLEY: Disobedience to instructions on the part of subordinate agents of the Foreign Office never ought to be, and, so far as my knowledge extends, never has been passed over. If such acts of disobedience were wilful, they would be followed by the recall of the person committing them. If they arose from an error of judgment or from a misconception of instructions given, probably an expression of disapproval would be sufficient. The decision in each case must depend upon the particular circumstances of the case-we cannot lay down any general or invariable rule. But with regard to the case of Mr. Consul Cameron, though I quite admit that he may have been more mixed up than was desirable in the politics of Abyssinia, yet if the reference of the hon. Baronet is, as I suppose it to be, to the order which Mr. Cameron received to return to his post, we have every reason to believe that that order did not reach Mr. Cameron until he was detained by King Theodore, and had therefore ceased to be a free agent. It would not therefore be just to punish a man for not obeying an order which it was physically impossible for him to obey. HALIFAX, BERMUDA, AND ST. THOMAS MAILS.-RESOLUTION. MR. HUNT, in moving a Resolution approving the Contract with Mr. W. Cunard, for Conveyance of the Halifax, Bermuda, and St. Thomas Mails, said, that the contract was for a sum of £19,500 for ten years, for a service once in four weeks; but in the event of the Postmaster General desiring to determine the contract at the end of five years, Mr. Cunard was to receive £1,000 a year additional. The reason for the maintenance of this service was concisely given in a letter from the Secretary to the Admiralty to the Secretary of the Treasury, dated April 26, 1867 "With reference to my letter of the 31st of July, 1866, respecting the discontinuance of the contract with Messrs. Cunard for conveying the North American mails, I am commanded by my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to acquaint you that they have received an inquiry from the Postmaster General as to the necessity of continuing the mail service between Halifax and St. Thomas, via Bermuda, which, under existing arrangements with Messrs. Cunard, will terminate on the 2nd of January next. I am commanded by their Lordships to request you will state to the that their Lordships have informed the Postmaster Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury General that the withdrawal of this mail packet would be attended with the greatest inconvenience to the public service. It is by this route the naval Commander-in-Chief on the North AmeriJamaica, Barbadoes, and all the various islands can station keeps up his communications with and colonies in the West Indies and the Gulf of Mexico, and to cut off this means of communication appears to their Lordships to be most unadvisable." Under these circumstances tenders were called for, and the tender accepted was the only one presented. The amount was MR. CORRY said, that the Secretary considerably higher than the Treasury had of the Treasury had already answered the expected, and the Admiralty were there- hon. Gentleman, by showing that the perfore asked whether they could not under-formance of the service by the Royal Navy take the service themselves. Their reply would not be an economical arrangement. was as follows:It would be absolutely necessary to build new vessels, for a man-of-war would be as unsuitable to the service as a mail packet would be to perform the duties of a manof-war. The Board had reduced the squadron to the lowest point compatible with the duties it had to perform; and it would not be an economical step to increase it. "In the event of the service having to be undertaken by this Department, it could not be performed with less than two vessels. The cost of building two suitable vessels is estimated at £70,000, there being none of Her Majesty's ships at present disposable. The annual cost of wages, victuals, coals, and wear and tear is estimated at not less than £25,000." There seemed, therefore, to be no alternative but to accept the tender. As to the terminal port of St. Thomas, power would be given in the contract to the Postmaster General to change the port to another port in the West Indies if such a change should hereafter be deemed necessary, the terms to be paid to Mr. Cunard for this alteration to be settled by mutual agreement, or failing that, by arbitration. Moved, "That the Contract entered into with Mr. W. Cunard, for the conveyance of Mails between Halifax, Bermuda, and St. Thomas, be approved." (Mr. Hunt.) MR. GILPIN said, that the last statement had rendered it unnecessary for him to make the remarks he had intended to offer. He was glad to hear that the Postmaster General would be empowered to remove the mails from the pestilential island of St. Thomas, from which ship after ship had brought home the yellow fever. Another reason why St. Thomas should no longer be the central point of our mail services to the West Indies was that the island had now ceased to be a Danish dependency, and had become the property of the United States. The main objection, however, to it was the mortality among the sailors and passengers in the mail packets. Another route might be adopted with equal advantage. He congratulated the country that this power was reserved to the Postmaster General, and hoped it would soon be exercised. MR. ALDERMAN LUSK complained that sufficient time was not allowed in making the arrangements for these contracts, and that they were left to the last moment. He found no fault with the Cunard Company, which did its work well; but why could not some of our Government vessels do this service? Surely it would be a good thing for the men and officers of the Royal Navy to have something to do in this way. Motion agreed to PUBLIC SCHOOLS BILL. LEAVE. FIRST READING. to bring in a Bill to make further proviMR. WALPOLE, in moving for leave sion for the good government and extension of certain Public Schools in England, said, that last year a Bill on the subject was brought into the House of Lords, founded upon a Report of the Royal Commission, and had come down to the House of Commons. The pressure of business, however, was then so great that he was unable to bring it to a second reading. He wished, therefore, now to bring in a Bill of nearly the same nature, but containing some few Amendments, and he thought it better to do so at this early period in order that it might be fully discussed when the House should meet after Christmas. He should propose to take the second reading on the second day of the meeting of Parliament after the Recess. MR. AYRTON said, he had already given notice for a Select Committee to inquire into the condition of some of the schools which would be affected by this Bill. He would suggest that before the second reading the right hon. Gentleman would consider the propriety of separating two questions which were really entirely distinct namely, the question affecting the provincial schools, such as Eton and Harrow, and that which related to the schools of the metropolis. MR. GOLDNEY hoped the scope of the Bill would be enlarged, and that it would be made to extend to other schools than those included in the measure of last year. Motion agreed to. Bill to make further provision for the good government and extension of certain Public Schools in England, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WALPOLE, Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 24.] METROPOLITAN FOREIGN CATTLE LEAVE. FIRST READING. observation in the reply of the noble Earl at the head of the Government in the debate on the Abyssinian expedition the previous evening. It appeared that the noble Earl had understood him to have said that he entirely approved the expedition. Now, what he had said was that he entirely approved the manner in which LORD ROBERT MONTAGU moved for the Government proposed to carry it out; leave to bring in a Bill to give powers but, as regarded the expedition itself, he for the establishment in the metropolis or thought no opinion ought to be expressed its immediate neighbourhood of a Foreign upon it now, as the affair having been acCattle Market. He said, his object in tually undertaken, it was much better, for introducing the Bill now was that it the present, that Parliament should apply might be before the country during the itself to the means of insuring success. He Recess. He should propose to take the had not given, and could not give, any second reading immediately after the Re-expression of his approbation in respect of cess, and refer the Bill to a Select Com- the expedition itself. mittee. The object of the Bill was to give power in the first instance to the City Corporation to construct a separate market for foreign animals. If they refused to undertake it, the matter would be put into the hands of the Metropolitan Board of Works, and they would receive power to raise the necessary funds. Failing them, it would be placed in the hands of five Commissioners to be named by Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Bill for the Establishment of a Foreign Cattle Market for the Metropolis; and for other purposes connected therewith, ordered to be brought in by Lord ROBERT MONTAGU and Mr. HUNT. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 25.] House adjourned at Seven o'clock. Bill read 3, and passed. EAST LONDON MUSEUM SITE BILL. LORD REDESDALE said, that in consequence of some observations which had been made by the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council in reference to the course he had thought it his duty to take when this Bill came before him, he wished to make an explanation. As their Lordships knew, Bills such as this were of a hybrid character, and consequently were dealt with both by him and by a Committee of their Lordships' House. It was his duty, when such a Bill came before him as Chairman of Committees, to see that it was in the shape in which it ought to be allowed to go on. This Bill proposed to take for the purposes of the Museum certain lands in Bethnal Green, which, under the deed securing them to Trustees, were to be for ever kept free from all buildings. It was extremely desirable that in densely-populated portions of this metropolis such open spaces should be preserved; and if the condition of so preserving them was about to be done away with, it was right that the parishioners and inhabitants should be informed of what was about to be done. In this case that information which the Standing Orders were framed to secure had not been afforded to the inhabitants of Bethnal Green. Even the preamble of the Bill was defective in not reciting the condition of the deed, or what Order of the Day for the Third Read- was about to be done, as was usual in all HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, December 6, 1867. MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS-Third Reading Sales of Reversions* (5); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental * (3); Metropolitan Streets Act (1867) Amendment (8); Income Tax; Consolidated Fund (£2,000,000), and passed. ing read. INCOME TAX BILL. (The Earl of Derby.) THIRD READING. LORD LYVEDEN said, he wished to make an explanation in reference to an Bills of this kind. His objection to the Bill was that from the manner in which it had been brought forward, the parties Here, interested had had no proper notice. Public time being as a public garden. notice of the Bill was first given by publi- again, a consideration of some importance cation in The Morning Post of the 15th presented itself, for unless the members of of November. Now, he thought he might Her Majesty's Government for the time. reasonably presume that The Morning being were prepared to defray the costs Post did not circulate very extensively in out of their own pockets, means for the Bethnal Green. It was afterwards pub- purpose must be provided out of the public lished in The London Gazette on the 19th, monies, and no notice had been given in and the last notice in The Post was on the the other House of Parliament of any such 25th November; and the Bill was brought intended application, and no Amendment in on the same day. Leave was given to that effect could be introduced by the to the Examiner of Standing Orders to Lords. The solicitor for the Bill adsit the next day, and he reported on the mitted that the price proposed to be 28th. The second reading was taken on given for the site (£2,000) was very the 29th, and the Bill was then sent to a inadequate, considering it land for buildSelect Committee, who reported the same ing purposes; but referred, by way of day. On the 30th it was re-committed, explanation, to this provision, that the and was carried through the remaining land, as to a certain portion of it, was not stages on the same day. The Standing to be built upon; but the Government Orders requiring November notices were were to be allowed to place whatever buildfor Bills expected to be brought in more ings were required for the purposes of the than two months afterwards. In this case Museum, which might include dwellings the Bill was brought in on the day follow- for the officers and servants, and it was ing the last notice, and instead of the usual therefore to be conveyed for building purtime for petition, and inquiry being al- poses. The noble Duke (the Duke of lowed after its introduction, the Standing Marlborough) said, when he was spoken Orders of both Houses had been suspended to, "You must have confidence in the Goin order to force it through within a fort- vernment." He had great confidence in night. He did not say that the object the present Government; but he would of the Bill might not be a very proper not trust them or any other Government one, but he had an objection to the way with unlimited powers over land in the in which the Bill was framed. It pro- way here proposed when it was intended vided that the trustees of the land or a that they should be limited. Such powers majority of them should have power to had never been given, and he thought sell to "the trustees for the establish- they ought not to be given. If Parment and maintenance of the East Lon- liament considered that certain powers don Museum at such price and on such should be conferred on the Government, terms as they agree on." When he asked let them prescribe the mode in which the agent for the Bill who were the such powers should be exercised. trustees of the East London Museum, the were the reasons why, in his opinion, the reply was, "Oh, the trust is not yet Bill ought not to be further proceeded formed." But was Parliament to give with before the Recess. Parliament did powers of purchase to a trust not yet not usually meet at this time of year, and formed? The only document in the form hence the matter would only stand over till of an agreement he had seen-by whom the ordinary period. He regretted that drawn up he could not tell-provided that he had not been present on the previous the land was to be conveyed to certain day, when the noble Duke brought forpersons called "purchasers," and that ward the subject, but he was in the full these were to be the members of Her belief that the Bill would not be proMajesty's Government for the time being. ceeded with, and that the Order would be "The members of Her Majesty's Govern- discharged; and he left the House acment for the time being were not a cordingly in order to catch a train for the corporation capable of purchasing and purpose of going down into the country; holding land; yet this was the only legal but having seen his remarks in the public document produced before him. More- prints, he felt it his duty to attend and to over, the Bill did not provide for the treat-assure the noble Duke that he had not the ment of the land. There was a provision in the agreement that whatever land was not used for the purposes of a Museum should be maintained by the Government for the These least intention of treating him or the House with disrespect. For the purpose of making this statement to their Lordships he had undertaken a journey of 180 miles. THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, he was sorry that the noble Lord had put himself to inconvenience; and had he been aware of the noble Lord's intention to renew the discussion, he should have taken pains to be prepared as to the particular facts which the noble Lord had mentioned. The noble Lord, while fulfilling, in a manner which could not fail to be satisfactory to their Lordships, the important duties of his high post, seemed also rather to take upon himself to determine the policy of a measure. Now, the duties with which the noble Lord was intrusted by their Lordships' House were to see whether Bills were in proper form, that notices had been properly given, and that various safeguards were properly inserted; these being in their nature, moreover, matters rather of a private than of a positively public character. But as to the policy of a measure, and as to whether Her Majesty's Government ought to be intrusted with a particular power or not, that was a matter for Parliament to determine, and which did not rest merely with the noble Lord, who was not to exercise the powers intrusted to him merely to stop a public measure because he did not think it desirable. This matter had been very fully considered by Her Majesty's Government; a Vote of £5,000 had been taken last year for the purpose of erecting this Museum, and as to the public garden which the noble Lord spoke of, it was a mere strip of ground surrounding the building about to be erected. The cost of maintenance hereafter, whatever that might amount to, would be included, he believed, in the Estimates for the South Kensington Museum. The necessity for this Bill had arisen solely out of the difficulty experienced in executing a conveyance legally, owing to the absence of two of the trustees. He would not venture to contradict the vast experience of the noble Lord as to the framing of Bills; and if the noble Lord, on his own responsibility, thought proper to delay the progress of this Bill until Parliament met again, the Government must only bow to the rules of their Lordships' House. At the same time a valuable opportunity would be lost, and as regarded one phrase to which objection had been taken, he certainly held that it was competent for the Ministers of the Crown for the time being to hold lands in the name of the Crown. He only hoped that when they met again the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees would con fine himself to the legitimate duties of that office, and would not think it right to raise grounds of policy in opposition to this measure. LORD REDESDALE replied that the only grounds which he had raised were points of form. [The Duke of MARLBOROUGH: No; points of policy.] I say points of form. The noble Duke thinks that when lands are to be conveyed for certain purposes, this is a question of policy. But whenever lands are conveyed for any special purposes, it is customary to require that those purposes should be stated in the Bill, and that I take to be a matter of form which should properly be observed. The noble Duke has not alluded to the fact that the Bill was run through all its stages in the Commons in one week, and that the only notice given to the parties whom the Bill would affect was given one week previously. If your Lordships deal in that way your Standing Orders parties may be deprived at any time of the lands which belong to them, without receiving that notice which those Orders are intended to secure to them. With regard to matters of policy, I did not touch on that point before, but I will mention a matter of policy now, which I think deserving of consideration. I think it very doubtful policy to maintain, or propose to establish a Museum, and maintain a garden at the public expense for the parish of Bethnal Green. I understand perfectly the policy of having a National Museum established and maintained at the public expense, and, being National, it is necessarily placed in the metropolis; and that we have got at South Kensington. But why is another portion of the metropolis to have another Museum and a garden added? If Bethnal Green is to have this, why not Southwark? And will not provincial towns put in a similar claim? Why should not the taxpayers of Birmingham or Manchester say, "We have as good a right to a Museum as Bethnal Green, and to have it set up and paid for out of the public purse?" Your Lordships will see that the proposition now made is one of those things requiring very careful consideration, and more, I am afraid, than has been bestowed in this instance. House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Twelve o'clock. |