gree, perhaps, to increased publicity, but Bill, which involves the transfer of the still more to the dictates of honour and jurisdiction. With regard to the difficulty the force of conscience, all feelings of poli- raised by the superior Judges, I do not tical bias have been neutralized. And venture to pronounce categorically; but here, I venture to say, with respect to this I venture to point out, that having what fell from the noble Lord the Member now heard the opinions of some twenty for Stamford, when he speaks of the great Gentlemen in the course of this debate, indifficulty and danger attending our com- cluding among them a very large number mitting these functions to gentlemen who not only of persons of the greatest weight have been petitioners, he must remember and experience in this House, but of those that they are now discharged by gentlemen who have specially given their minds to who not only have been, but may be, peti- the consideration of this very question, I tioners. There are two considerations do not think we have heard as much as which recommend the transfer to me, and one-I would almost include the Chanthey are entirely of a practical character. cellor of the Exchequer-who, agreeing to I mention them for what they are worth, the transfer of the jurisdiction, has been without giving any final opinion on the disposed to transfer it to any person whatsubject. The first consideration is that the ever except the superior Judges. I own Committees of this House have been found the discussion, as far as it leads to a posiadequate only to deal with questions as tive conclusion, leads me rather to conbetween the parties contending for the clude that we should transfer this power seat, and not adequate to that other and to the first authority in the land than that still more important function of ascertain- we should retain it. It appears to me all ing the manner in which electoral privi- the difficulty of principle and practice leges have been used at elections- whether would be raised to a maximum by the enpurely or impurely. Now that is an deavour to create a tribunal which will be essential fact, inherent in the exercise of judicial in its character, and which will power by Committees of this House. It not have the immense advantages of repuappears to me another essential and in- | tation which attach to the Courts of Law herent matter of great importance is this in Westminster Hall, and be placed in a -that as long as Election Petitions are to position that would certainly have no be tried by Committees of this House, their parallel in the history of Courts of Justice trial must be attended with the sacrifice of in this country. It seems to me we have the enormous advantages which attaches very nearly by this discussion elicited the to local inquiry. By local inquiry there mind of the House upon this point. I say would be obtained advantages the value of that, without in the slightest degree cenwhich it certainly appears to me to be suring or criticizing what Her Majesty's almost impossible to overrate. By such Government have done, I think, with the inquiry a more expeditious result would be opinion I entertain as to the transfer of obtained; and this is of the greatest im- jurisdiction, they are perfectly right in portance for what happens now? It making the proposal for that transfer. I, frequently turns out that an Election Peti- for one, will be prepared to give the printion is not decided until perhaps four or ciple of the Bill a fair and candid confive months of the Parliamentary Session sideration, whatever decision is come to. have passed; and, during those four or five months it frequently happens that most important votes have been givenvotes, perhaps, deciding the fate of great measures, or the fate of administrationsby Gentlemen who are not the true representatives of the electors of the kingdom. Well, if you can contrive a system more expeditious, it is of the greatest advantage, and if you can contrive a system more economical it is of the greatest advantage. The advantages resulting from local inquiry would be enormous. There are two vital and essential difficulties that seem to me inherent in the present principle, but I will come to no fixed conclusion on this MR. BRIGHT: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire made an observation which appears to me of more value than any made during the course of this discussion. This matter of transferring the jurisdiction in cases of contested elections from the House of Commons to some other tribunal has been much talked of in past years. I think the highest authorities in the House have come, very naturally, to the conclusion that the case must be desperate. Indeed, when a popular house of representatives would turn out its power with regard to the determination of the right of men to take their seats in that House to any other tribunal, the case must be desperate. Now, I main- | looking at what took place last Session, tain there is no desperate case. I am dis- and which he naturally did so much to posed to agree with the right hon. Gentle- bring about, has anticipated that after anman, and accept the warning he has given other General Election we shall have many in this matter. Now, what is it a Com- more petitions than we have had premittee appeared to do last Session, and viously. Well, I hope very much he may what is it the Ilouse is asked to do now? be disappointed; I believe also he will It is dealing with a certain offence which be disappointed. I think when you have is frequently committed; and as there is larger constituencies you will be much a sort of hopelessness that the offence can more free from those eternal petitions. be got rid of, some short cut is to be got You have had no petitions—at least withfor the purification of the House; but in my recollection-from Glasgow, Manthere seems to be no intention on the part chester, or Birmingham-indeed, scarcely of the House to see whether we can pre- from any of the larger constituencies in vent the offence, rather than take some the kingdom. In the larger constituencies, extraordinary method of punishing it. where bribery is useless and impossible, Now, I should be very glad if we had be- you have no difficulty of this kind-no fore us information from other legislative petitions. Now, I would prefer - if I assemblies in the world respecting this might presume to offer advice to the matter. We know something-a great House that we should not take this many of us a good deal of the legislative transfer of jurisdiction, but look forward assembly in the United States. We know to what will happen within the next five a good deal of what is done in the Parlia- or ten years-that a great number of the ment of the Colony of Australia. We know small constituencies will be abolished, besomething also of the Parliaments in cause I find hon. Gentlemen on the oppoFrance, Italy, Prussia, and the smaller site side are accessible to reason on that European kingdoms; and we have this la- question-and they are as anxious as we mentable fact to acknowledge, that this are to abolish the small constituencies, so House in which we are now assembled is that a real population may be represented. the only legislative assembly in which I think the experience of Parliament is there is this great and intolerable griev- that those large constituencies, as a mere ance-that after a General Election the matter of machinery, will bring a large proceedings of the House are-I will not majority of the House and the country say interrupted-but in some degree dis- before long to accept the principle of the turbed by the number of petitions coming ballot. ["No!"] With that view, then, before the House complaining of undue looking forward, not to an increase of the electoral returns. There is no such thing evil, as the right hon. Gentleman expects, in the other legislative assemblies of the but rather to a diminution of it; and lookworld, and if any Member can give a con- ing forward to the House coming by-andtradiction to that, let him get up and state by-as it gradually and slowly comes to it. I might appeal to the right hon. Gen- many sensible conclusions-I believe it tleman the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe), will do away with the small constituencies who sits near me, and who knows the Par- where the temptation to bribery is so great, liament of Australia, or to the hon. Member and for the sake of the purity and tranquilfor Pontefract (Mr. Childers). I received a lity of elections will grant the shelter and letter only this morning from a gentleman security of the ballot; therefore I am unwho was in Australia for two years, and willing to make the transfer which some he refers to the very fact I have men- hon. Gentlemen have recommended, and tioned. The fact is, if you have small which the right hon. Member for South constituencies in any country in the world, Lancashire appears to give some colour to. and have open voting, the malady of cor- I think it is a very unpleasant, extraorruption will prevail. There is no other dinary, and, I would say, desperate reremedy for the matter but to have large medy. I think the case is not desperate. constituencies and secret voting. Hon. I would rather look forward for a few Gentlemen opposite do not like that re- years, hoping that remedy will not be remedy. They never do like any remedy-quired, and without the House of Commons at least I proposed a great many remedies for a long time which they did not like. But that is a remedy. Now, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne, abdicating its functions, that, finally, it will no longer be ashamed of the number of petitions presented after General Elections. One or two petitions I can readily understand coming from accidental circumstances in particular boroughs; but a shoal of forty, seventy, or eighty petitions is an absolute disgrace to the English Parliament. I am not without hope that public opinion and measures of Parliament may provide some remedy for the disgrace without our being compelled to humble ourselves before the world, and say, "We have been obliged to transfer from ourselves the power which constitutionally belongs to us, and to give it to another tribunal, which, indeed, we make by Act of Parliament, but which, when we have made it, will be, with regard to its decisions, absolutely independent of us." MR. LOCKE said, he would not have risen had it not been for what had been said with reference to the petition against the return of Mr. Pender. The circumstance which had been pointed out might have occurred even if the inquiry had taken place before the Judges, for it frequently happened that where a new trial was granted entirely different evidence was adduced to that brought forward at the first, and an entirely different result arrived at. The nature of the evidence taken before a Commission was altogether different from that brought before an Election Committee; and Election Commissions had been established, as was well known, for the purpose of making an inquiry which no Court of Justice could by any possibility make, inasmuch as the witnesses gave their evidence under an indemnity, and were therefore quite willing to make statements which they would refuse to make in an ordinary investigation on account of their rendering themselves liable to penal consequences. He entirely coincided with the hon. Member for Birmingham that that House must be in a very desperate position indeed if it were obliged to transfer to another tribunal powers which it had possessed from time immemorial. In the very large constituency which he represented no bribery had ever taken place within his knowledge, and, indeed, in large constituencies it was no use bribing; whereas in very small constituencies the vote did sometimes become a valuable marketable commodity, and was so treated. He thought the greatest safeguard would be the enlargement of constituencies and the introduction of vote by ballot, which would be an effectual check to bribery, as men did not choose to throw their money away upon an article which they might not obtain after all. He hoped that the House would fully consider this matter, and would maintain, as far as possible, those rights and privileges which they at present possessed. MR. BONHAM CARTER said, they were all too ready to find fault with them. selves, and he thought there had pervaded the debate rather an undue disparagement of the existing tribunal. He agreed with the Chairman of Committees that the great difficulty of the present tribunal was the mode in which the evidence was presented to it. It was possible that by some local inquiries they might be able to supplement to great advantage the present system; but they ought to hesitate before coming to the conclusion that Election Committees, as now constituted, were useless and unfair. The fetters which the Act of Parliament imposed upon them prevented Committees conveying to the public that appearance of fairness which they might have if their discretion were less controlled. He had sat for many years upon the General Committee of Elections, and even in times of great political excitement he had never heard any charge of unfairness made against the selected members, or the Chairmen of Election Committees. MR. GOLDNEY said, he was of opinion that a great many of the defects which had been pointed out arose from the very limited powers Committees had of dealing with the various subjects before them, all they could inquire into and decide upon being whether the seat belonged to the petitioner or the sitting Member; whether the election was void; and whether a new writ should issue. Before they threw away the existing jurisdiction they should consider whether, if the extensive powers proposed to be given by this Bill to the existing Judges, or to the new Court were given to Election Committees, it would not be possible to deal with these questions in as satisfactory a manner as they could be if the House parted with its jurisdiction. MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he considered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was entitled to considerable credit for having brought forward this subject on the first day of the Session, and for the candid manner in which he had related to the House all the circumstances connected with his recommendations. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be induced to go a little further, and satisfy the natural curiosity of the House as to the HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, February 14, 1868. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILL-Report of Select Their Lordships met; and having gone through the business on the Paper, without debate House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock, exact nature of the communication which | CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Secretary GAhad passed between the Judges and Her THORNE HARDY, and Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE. Majesty's Government; whether this was Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 27.] merely in the nature of advice given, whether it was a round-robin signed by House adjourned at half after Seven o'clock. all or only a portion of the Judges, or whether it amounted to a strike on the part of the Bench. Under the existing system impartiality was out of the question; for, in the first place, as we have been told, two Members from each side of the House were nominated upon Election Committees distinctly as equally representing the two political parties, and the Chairman, who was professedly appointed from a different source to that of the other four Members, nevertheless, himself, as a Member, naturally participated in the feelings and passions of the House. In fact, the precautions which are habitually taken by the House to insure impartiality in dealing with a Bill concerning the affairs of a joint-stock company were directly reversed. The hon. Member also expressed a hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain why from the present proposals of the Government that provision had been omitted upon which so much stress was formerly laid namely, the proposal to give to the candidate whose conduct was proved to have been pure the seat forfeited by the candidate convicted of bribery. He had troubled the right hon. Gentleman with a letter on this point, and the secretary of the right hon. Gentleman had done him the favour to call upon him. But his explanation-lucus à non lucendo did not render the case very clear. At least, it seemed to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had yielded very easily to whatever objections had been made from some subordinate quarter. As matters at present stood the greatest impediments were thrown in the way of petitioners, for the candidate who performed the public duty of petitioning incurred not only the expense, but the unpopularity of the proceeding, and, unless seated by the ordeal of a scrutiny, he never ventured to go down again to the constituency. He was put in this position — after bringing his action he was not allowed to win his cause. Motion agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, February 14, 1868. Accounts nominated. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE-On Public TRIAL OF ELECTION PETITIONS. MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN said, he rose to give notice that on Monday he would ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer (unless the right hon. Gentleman thought fit to answer the Question now), Whether he has any objection to lay on the table the Copy of the communication made by the Judges to Her Majesty's Government relative to the proposed transfer to them of the trial of Election Petitions? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, it may be rather irregular to do so, but perhaps I may be allowed to reply at once to the inquiry of the hon. Member. I have already moved that this Paper-a letter from the Lord Chief Justice of England to the Lord ChancellorBill for amending the Laws relating to Election should be laid on the table, and I hope it Petitions, and providing more effectually for the prevention of Corrupt Practices at Parliamentary will be in the hands of hon. Members toElections, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CHAN-morrow morning.—[Parl. P. No. 50.] PROBATE DUTY ON LEASEHOLD PRO- Shields, and, that duty being completed, PERTY.-QUESTION. MR. KINNAIRD said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to carry into effect the recommendations made by the Inland Revenue Commissioners in their last Report, relative to the assessment of Probate Duty on Leasehold Property subject to mortgage? MR. HUNT said, in reply, that he proposed to introduce a measure upon this subject in the course of the present Session. MR. O'BEIRNE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, When the Report of the Committee appointed to superintend the experiments upon the Malta and Gibraltar Shields will be placed upon the table; and whether the same Committee had been instructed to superintend and report upon the experiments to be made with reference to the Bermuda Fort and the Plymouth Breakwater Fort; and if the Committee have not been so instructed, is it his intention to place those experiments also under their superintendence? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, in reply, that the Committee on the Malta and Gibraltar Shields had almost completed their Report, and he expected to be able to lay it upon the table of the House in the course of next week. That Committee was not instructed to superintend and report upon the experiments made with the Bermuda and Plymouth Breakwater Shields; their duty was performed when they reported on the Malta and Gibraltar their labours would be at an end. But four shields on the Gibraltar principle had been sent to Bermuda, and those would be included in the Committee's Report. As the hon. Gentleman had referred to the Bermuda Shield, he was, no doubt, aware that the shields intended for Bermuda and Plymouth were on the same principle. A target had been constructed on that principle, which was to be experimented on shortly, but it would not be by the same Committee. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1867-THE COMPOUND-HOUSEHOLDER.-QUESTION. MR. SANDFORD said, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to bring forward any Measure to relieve the Compound-Householders from the personal payment of Rates, to which they have been made liable by the repeal of the Small Tenements Act? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I infer, Sir, that my hon. Friend intends to limit his Question to those ratepayers who dwell in Parliamentary boroughs, but I need not remind him that in Parliamentary boroughs there are no compound-householders. The House will remember that the alteration in the position of those persons who were compoundhouseholders was carried unanimously here, and also that the Act which terminated their existence has, comparatively speaking, only recently come into operation. So far as the compound-householders are concerned, it only came into operation on the 29th of September; and, generally speaking, I believe, that during the interval which has elapsed, from the passing of the |