honorable gentlemen who, having made up their minds to the simple voting, and having shouted their war cry, seemed content to waive discussion. Those honorable gentlemen were prepared to make what was called a "dead set" against the Native department, in which he for one was not prepared to support them; but he thought a very reason able point of resistance was upon the grounds of special and extraordinary votes of enormous dimensions, to one Government, and in one period, which it would be practically impossible for the Colony to continue, and which, therefore, must demoralize all concerned, and leave behind diffi-, culties as great as those under which they had laboured for the last ten years. He therefore asked the Committee to assist him in putting every possible restriction upon those votes, and limiting, year by year, the amount to be paid for the land purchases, although he had been refused the limitation he had asked in the case of roads in the North Island. Mr. MACANDREW expressed a hope that the honorable member in charge of the Bill would save the Committee further discussion by at once agreeing to the amendment of the honorable member for Grey and Bell. He must say that it was exceedingly refreshing to hear from that honorable member even a recognition of Provincial Councils. Mr. WILLIAMSON said that, unless facilities were given for acquiring land in the North Island, upon which to settle the immigrants, the whole immigration scheme would be one for the Middle Island. Natives might offer for sale important and valuable tracts of the country, upon which immigrants could be settled, but the Provincial Council might not be in session at the time, and the Superintendent would have to wait until the Council was called together, while in the meantime the opportunity to purchase might be lost. Mr. VOGEL had well thought over the amendment proposed by the honorable member for Grey and Bell, and it appeared to him that it would entirely frustrate the object of the part of the Bill which they were discussing. The honorable member for Clutha had a very proper respect for Provincial Councils, but the circumstances of his Province were very different from the circumstances of the Northern Provinces; and in their discussions as to the purchase of land they might say, "We do not desire this purchase to be made." The amendment which he (Mr. Vogel) had prepared was to the effect that the Governor should make the purchases, after he had been requested by the Superintendent to do so, and after he should have agreed with such Superintendent as to the terms and charged the sum to the Provinces-instead of making a purchase before agreeing as to the terms of purchase. Now, those would be delicate negotiations which it would be impossible to enter into with Provincial Governments; and, therefore, the Government could not accept the honorable member's amendment. He (Mr. Vogel) moved to strike out the words "if he be," in the fourth line, and to insert in lieu thereof the words "shall have been." | Mr. FITZHERBERT was glad to find that the Government did not intend to accept the amend ment of the honorable member for Grey and Bell. In addition to the reasons given by the Colonial Treasurer, another reason presented itself to his mind. It was patent to every one acquainted with the operations of the Native Land Purchase Act in the North Island that all of themselves, if he might presume to make so sweeping an assertion, were in the market for buying land. That was to say, they would all of them, more or less, be competitors with the Government over the £200,000, and, if that were the case, his sympathies would be entirely with the Government as against themselves, and, therefore, he should not like to see them, either by themselves or by the influence of surveyors or capitalists, come in and spoil those purchases. The reason why he was in favour of the £200,000 being placed at the service of the Government was that, under the operation of that Act to which he had referred, colonization in the North Island henceforward had become almost impossible unless some change were introduced. He meant colonization upon any concerted or large scale. The very eyes of the country were being picked out every day, and it was impossible to form anything like systematic settle ments. Under those circumstances, he believed that if they were to make the matter a special reference to the Provincial Councils they would perhaps mar the work. He would earnestly call the attention of the Government to a question in connection with the present and succeeding clause, which, if they were going in for systematic colonization in the North Island, would have to be attended to; he alluded to the imperfect surveys in the North Island. The present was an exceedingly favourable opportunity of mentioning the subject, as it was entirely on all fours with the question under consideration. He did not sup pose, for one moment, that the Government would come down and tell them that the scheme of spending £200,000 was for the purpose of producing peace. If that were the case he would not vote one farthing. They had arrived at that stage of affairs that it was better for them to look the very worst in the face, and adopt a totally different mode of expending £200,000, if such were the intentions of the Government. But, on the other hand, he understood that it was the intention of the Government to carry out and further a very great system of colonization, and it was in that sense that he supported them, and in that sense he commended to their consideration the imperfect state of the surveys in the North Island. Unless something were done in that direction, complications would arise, compared to which those with regard to the Native question which had hitherto arisen would be as nothing. He objected to indiscriminate permission being given to persons to make independent surveys. It too frequently occurred that persons who undertook the survey of land only went through the form of doing so, and the result of their labour was create confusion, by having the land of one purchaser overlap that of another. There had to been no plan of survey adopted in the North Island having regard to a scientifie whole. The Government had not covered the Island with triangulated survey, and the consequence was that Crown grants, as he understood, and he believed it could not be gainsaid, were being issued for land which had been previously purchased. He hoped that a portion of the £200,000 would be dedicated to the general survey of the North Island, as it was a work of the greatest necessity. Mr. VOGEL admitted the importance of the question alluded to. It was one which the Government had had for some time under their notice, but it was one with which they could not undertake to deal this session. The matter would be considered during the recess, and the Government would see if some arrangement could not be come to between the different Provinces for a survey, which would include the whole of the Island. The circumstances of the Middle Island were different, and he hoped the Government would succeed in effecting such an arrangement, as thereby much unnecessary expense would be spared and greater satisfaction afforded. He trusted that the honorable member would be satisfied with his statement, and not press any amendment on the subject. With respect to the objections of the honorable member for Grey and Bell, he might say that the object of the Bill was not the promotion of either peace or war, but simply to encourage colonization. As had been stated in the budget speech, the Government felt that, when making the improvements contemplated in the North Island, | it would be worse than folly not to take up those large tracts of land which the Natives were willing to part with and which could be had on very advantageous terms. He hoped that, after this explanation, the honorable member would allow the clause to pass. Mr. RICHMOND had listened attentively to the arguments of the honorable member for the Hutt. He believed it was quite true, as the Colonial Treasurer had stated, that the money, if raised, would not be expended expressly, or even designedly, for the purchase of peace; but do what they would, the £200,000 would be given to the Natives in the course of a very short time. That was a fact, and no argument, no amount of discussion, could show that the intentions of the Government in that respect could modify the result in the least degree. The money would be spent on the Natives, provided it could be raised; and when speaking on the Bill, and discussing it, they should be careful to add that proviso, for, after all, they were probably only arguing on a vision of their own minds. The Government had arranged to spend £400,000 under another head, but a large part of that also would be spent amongst the Natives, he hoped in good and useful contracts. That enormous temporary expenditure was, he ventured to say, a dangerous policy, as it could not be carried out ad infinitum. The honorable member for Wairarapa had raised his defiant voice frequently against the Native department, and had, on several occasions, asserted that he would do away with it altogether. He would ask him to assist in preventing the spending and squandering of the money. They were pursuing a policy towards the Natives which must create a hunger that the House would have to gratify in one way or another. With respect to the survey to which the honorable member for the Hutt (Mr. Fitzherbert) had alluded, he considered that his proposition would be a necessary appendage to the operations of the Government. He quite agreed with the honorable member's remarks as to the blunders, for want of such a systematic survey, which had taken place in the first days of the Native Lands Court. He had been frequently twitted by the Colonial Treasurer and the honorable member for Mongonui with being of a visionary temper, but he took credit to himself that he had, when in the Government and responsible for administering the decisions of the Court, so far as the issue of grants was concerned, established a survey office in connection with the Court and introduced the system of triangulation. The cost of that system had been very small-not more, he believed, than one farthing an acre, and he did not believe that it required the consent of the Provincial Governments to carry it out fully. If they took the whole area of the Northern Island, which was about thirty million acres, it would be seen for how small a sum, comparatively speaking, the survey could be made. He would press his amendment because he felt convinced that the honorable member for the Hutt (Mr. Fitzherbert) had mistaken the times. No negotiations, he believed, could be effected by the Government for the purchase of Native lands without the matter becoming public. These negotiations could not succeed except in the case of lands of inferior quality, because everybody in the Colony would become a competitor. The time was passed when systematic colonization could be carried on except in one or two spots. He spoke as one who had travelled a great deal in the Colony, when he said that there was no place in the North Island where that system could be carried on, with the exception of one locality, the Taranaki promontory, between Waitotara and the White Cliffs. If the Government concentrated its efforts upon that spot, if local jealousies were laid aside, and the claims of the friendly Natives purchased, systematic colonization might prove successful, and there might soon be a numerous and tax-paying population settled there. But, as regards the remaining portion of the Colony, systematic colonization was a mere vision, and, if attempted, it would be found that good land could not be purchased from the Natives on terms that would pay. Mr. McLEAN saw no reason to apprehend any difficulty arising from the purchase of land by the Government. The object of the Government was, clearly, to acquire the land for purposes of colonization. If the Government did not obtain the land it would be secured by private individuals. As to the influence upon the minds of the Natives, he did not at all agree with the honorable member, who was mistaken in supposing that the negotiations for the purchase of land would be private. It was well known that viduals, because they now felt assured that they would gain an advantage by having a European population settling amongst them, in the event of the land becoming the property of the Govern ment. The Provincial Government had not the means, during his (Mr. Williamson) superintendency, to purchase those lands, but at the time a portion of the half million loan had been allocated to Auckland for land purchasing, the present Defence Minister had assisted him materially in acquiring land which was most available for purposes of colonization, and it was upon that basis that the forty-acre system was adopted. Many families had since settled upon the lands thus acquired. As far as he was concerned, he was glad to see the system about to be resumed. The Natives were, in almost every case, more willing to sell to the Government than to private persons. Every impediment to the measure and to the speedy acquisition of land from the Natives was destructive to the colonization of the North Island. If the proposals of the Government were not carried out, the effect would be that the large immigration scheme now under consideration would only apply to the Middle Island, where lands were not in the hands of the Natives. It was for that reason he felt bound to vote against the amendment, not but that he believed it was wise at times to consult the wishes of Provincial Councils, but if doing so were attended with delay, the effect would be to throw impediments in the way of promptly acquiring land for the purpose of colonization. former purchases made by the Government re- | ceived every publicity, notice being given, in many instances, one, two, three, six, and even twelve months prior to the completion of the purchase. In this case purchases would only be completed after inquiry as to title in the Native Lands Court. There was no doubt that, if the colonization of the North Island was to be carried on with anything like system, it was better that these large tracts of land should be purchased by the Government than by private speculators. It was absolutely essential, if there was to be anything like progressive settlement, that the land should be so purchased. He would ask honor able members to look at those parts of the Colony where a different system prevailed. It would be found that settlement in these places had languished. There was no regular and progressive settlement except where the Government had acquired the land from the Natives. It was not intended hastily to conduct these purchases, and he thought, judging from the measures which had, up to that time, been adopted, the Government should not be blamed for having at all acted with undue haste. The outlay of the Government that year, in opening up main lines of road, and affording employment to the Natives, had been most profitable, and the work had been economically carried out. Every engineer who had examined the works admitted that they had been well executed, and at 50 per cent. less than if the Government had employed contractors and European labourers. It had also the effect of directing the attention of the Natives to pursuits of peace. In districts where but a short time Mr. BUNNY could not support the amendment. ago no European could travel, there were now The honorable member for Grey and Bell had good tracks and tolerable dray roads. The Go-called on him to raise what he was pleased to call vernment, therefore, could not be open to the imputation of squandering money in that direction. Neither did he think that the Government should be opposed in the effort to acquire land for the purposes of settlement and colonization. They would soon find that unless the Government purchased the land it would fall, ultimately, into the hands of private individuals, and all progressive settlement would be at an end. What ever might be the objections of the honorable member for Grey and Bell to the Bill before the House, he might rely upon the discretion of the Government with reference to the purchase of land. Mr. WILLIAMSON said that there was plenty of land to the north of Auckland which might be rendered available for settlement if in the hands of the Government, but which would be quite useless for that purpose if allowed to pass into the possession of private individuals. It was well known that wherever lands were thus acquired they were left to remain as they were before, a perfect wilderness. Colonization was wanted in the North Island. The safety of the North depended upon it. Though much of the land was not of a quality to encourage settlement, there were still large portions capable of being colonized. There were extensive blocks of land in the North Island that the Natives would rather sell to the Government than to private indi his defiant voice, to annihilate the Native office. Now, though he had always been, and would continue to be, opposed to the system of spending money upon the Natives, he thought it was a different matter when they spent the money in acquiring land for the purposes of colonization. The sooner they acquired the £200,000, and the land of which it was the purchase money, the better it would be for the Colony. As to the Lands Courts, he believed it would be an advantage to repeal the Act under which they existed, and thus admit of the Government going back to the old system of direct purchase. He could not support the amendment, as he believed it was in the wrong direction, and was only calculated to throw impediments in the way of carrying out the objects of the Bill. Mr. ROLLESTON moved the following addition to the clause: "Provided that no instalment shall be paid on those purchases, and no such purchase shall be completed, until the owners of the land agreed to be purchased shall have been ascertained by the Native Lands Court." He would be sorry to throw obstructions in the way of land being acquired by the Government in the North Island, but he objected to the constant change of policy towards the Natives. The Natives regarded the Native Lands Court as an institution of their own, and it had worked favourably throughout the Island. It would be impossible to say what might have occurred in the country but for the establishment of that Court. Its effects had operated beneficially upon the minds of many of the tribes, particularly the Ngapuhi, who were not slow to see the advantages the Native Lands Act conferred. He objected to the constant change of policy pursued to the Natives, but he did not wish to raise a discussion upon the question, as he had already stated his views. Mr. McLEAN hoped the honorable member would withdraw his amendment, as it would only have the effect of embarrassing the Government. The Government in no case completed the purchase of any land until the necessary preliminaries had been gone through in the Native Lands Court. That course had been pursued in reference to the purchase of land in the Seventy Mile Bush. When the question of title was clear, it was as easy for the Government to purchase as for private individuals, and he did not see why the Government should be placed at a greater disadvantage than private persons. The object the Government had in view was simply to do that which would be for the good of the public and those intending to settle in New Zealand. He could not see why they should insist upon placing the Government in a very much worse position. It certainly should have the same privilege as private individuals. The Government were not asking for any monopoly: it was open to private individuals to acquire Native territory, and why should it not be equally open to the Government to make such purchases? It was eminently unfair that the Government should be placed at a disadvantage in this matter, particularly when it affected the interests of the community at large. In the North Island, where the object was to carry on settlement, they had been deprived of the waste lands for that purpose-hundreds of thousands of acres had been absorbed by private individuals, where thousands of families might have been settled if means had been available to purchase those lands. He hoped the honorable member would not press his amendment. The action of the Government would be subject to inquiry as to title by the Native Lands Court. The action of the Native Lands Court in the North had been exceedingly satisfactory. The Natives had their titles individualized, and security of tenure given them, by means of the Court. That it had worked unfairly in other parts of the country was no doubt true, and that it might lead to litigation and trouble was also true; but there was no doubt the working of the Act had had a very good effect among some of the tribes in the North. Mr. MOORHOUSE said the principle of the Bill had been discussed and settled long since. The only thing that appeared to him now was, whether the amendment proposed by the honorable gentleman would not have the effect of preventing the Government carrying out its operations with the Natives. He quite concurred with what had fallen from the last speaker. He believed the amendment would embarrass the action of the Government. He had reason to believe that it would do so; naturally it would do so. The Government, representing the general public, should not be placed in an embarrassing position when exerting themselves for the interest of the public. The action of the Government was most likely to be embarrassed by accepting the first amendment of the honorable member for Grey and Bell. They all understood, as men of business, that in negotiating a purchase, although it was their duty to give the highest price if they wished to secure the property, still it was not their duty to give more than its value; and it was their business to surround themselves with such precautions as might secure the chance of getting the land, if anything, at a price within its value, more especially as they were representing others in the transaction. If they called upon Provincial Councils to assist, they would realize that which followed the employment of too many cooks to make the broth. He believed none would be so able to conduct arrangements of this character as the gentlemen who were to be under the control of the Native Minister. He believed that was a proper authority, that was a responsible authority, and he believed no very great advantage would result from employing Provincial Councils all over the Colony to buy land and to interfere with the action of the Commissioners who might be appointed by the Native department. It was too late to refer to the policy of the Government interfering in the purchase of Native lands; it had been affirmed. It could not be concealed that the Legislature effectually affirmed, in more than one session, that it was inexpedient for the Government of the country to interfere in the matter of the purchase of land, for reasons which might be very obvious some time ago. He was unable to give an opinion on the present policy, as he had not been in the House for some time. He had a great deal to learn before he could give an opinion as to how far such a change of policy was justified by the circumstances. The House had affirmed the policy of the Government, and he believed the acceptance of the amendment would have the effect of embarrassing the success of that policy. Mr. RICHMOND would ask that the amendment be put. The remarks of the Native Minister had entirely justified the proposal. The honorable member had stated that the purchases were not to be carried out in a corner, but in the broad light of day. In former times there were but two parties concerned; there was no competition for the land, and no cause for secrecy. If it were the intention of the Government that the new operations should be carried on with publicity, it appeared to him very clear that the ground upon which the honorable member for the Hutt and the Colonial Treasurer had opposed the consultation of Provincial Councils was entirely cut away. Under section 35, the Provinces were to be debited with the amount expended, therefore the Councils should have a voice in the expenditure. It had been said that he had changed his views of Provincial Governments, but he was not aware that, upon the question between Superintendents and Provincial Councils, he had ever been found asserting that Superintendents should have absolute power to pledge the Councils or their Provinces. The publicity that would be obtained in the Provinces by the action of the Councils would not affect the terms of purchase, but merely as to the more general question whether a purchase should be made or no. The Provincial Councils should have an opportunity of saying what they think about this question they should not be saddled with the payment of money for the purchase of land they might not think it desirable to obtain, without allowing them a voice in the matter. He would ask the Chairman to put the amendment, as he was anxious to record the opposite view in the clearest possible manner. He should have another amendment to make in another clause, to show that he was not making the present amendment in a hostile spirit, but with the desire to qualify the proposals of the Government and to make them consistent with sound policy in respect to the Natives. He intended to propose an amendment, giving the Government the power to grant annuities in payment for land to the Natives. He desired to show the House and to place on record the view he entertained, and which he was sure ought to be acted upon in practice if the policy of land purchase in the North Island was to be carried out. Mr. VOGEL was quite ready to allow the House to decide the question. The question of whether Provincial Councils should be allowed to act with the Superintendents had not much to do with the present clause for the acquiring of the land; it might have to do with clause 35 of the Bill. The only stipulation in the clause under consideration was that land should be bought from the owners or persons claiming to have a title to it with the consent of the Superintendent of the Province where the land was situate. Mr. CARRINGTON hoped the House would not entertain the idea put forth by the honorable member for Grey and Bell and the honorable member for Avon. If the Provincial Councils were to be consulted, they would never have any land: such a proposal, if carried out, would be fatal to the whole scheme. With regard to putting the matter before the Court to be investigated, there had not been a single instance in which the title had failed where the land had been purchased by the now Native Minister. Mr. KELLY thought the amendment of the honorable member for Grey and Bell was provided for in clause 87, which stated that the Superintendent was to act with the advice of the Executive Council. Mr. Richmond's amendment was negatived, and Mr. Vogel's amendment agreed to. Mr. Rolleston's proposed proviso to the clause was put and negatived. Clause as amended agreed to. Clause 32.-Out of the moneys authorized to be raised under the said Loan Act, and applicable to the purpose of purchasing lands in the North Island, there may be issued and expended in or about the purchase of any such lands, as in the preceding section mentioned, any sum or sums not exceeding in the whole two hundred thousand pounds. Mr. RICHMOND mored that after the words "not exceeding in" the following words should be inserted :—" any one year the sum of twentyfive thousand pounds, nor in." His object was to impose due precaution on the expenditure of the money, and that a very large sum of money should not be expended in any one year among the Natives, which meant utter demoralization of the people. Mr. WILLIAMSON hoped the Committee would not be so unwise as to pass such an amendment. If Governor Hobson, in the early days of settlement in this Colony, had had it in his power to acquire Native lands, they could have been purchased for less money, and it would have prevented the shedding of so much blood. If they should now put off the acquiring of the land until colonization should set in, they could not tell how much they would have to pay for the land in a few years. He was surprised that such an unwise amendment should come from the honorable member for Grey and Bell. Mr. VOGEL said the Government could not accept the amendment. Amendment negatived. Mr. VOGEL said the Government would accept the proviso respecting the granting of annuities, which he would now move: Provided that the Governor may agree to pay for any such land either wholly or in part by terminable annuity assignable or unassignable for any period not exceeding two lives or thirty years, and in every such case he shall be deemed to have expended so much of the sum hereinbefore appropriated as would represent the principal sum whereof such annuity would represent the interest, reckoning at six per centum. Mr. RICHMOND thanked the Colonial Treasurer for accepting his amendment. He said it behoved them to look somewhat into futurity, after the practical experience they had had of the wastefulness and extravagance of the Native race. Large estates had been squandered away by them, and it was highly expedient that the Government should act upon such a power in as many cases as possible. Great dangers impended over the Colony in several districts from the improvidence of the Natives, not from the action of the Native Lands Court as had been asserted, but from their most ill-advised, or not advised at all, dealing with their property in bringing it before the Court; and by being, to this extent, the guardians and protectors of the Native race the Government could do that which was best for the peace of this country. Amendment agreed to. Clause 33.-Land may be declared to be sold subject to waste land laws in force in the Province in which they are. Mr. RICHMOND moved the omission of all the words after the word "provisions" in the sixth line. Amendment negatived, and clause as printed agreed to. |