arrived at. Although they were most of them aware of the truth of this fact, they did not sufficiently admit it to themselves, and, in undertaking railways, they did not institute a comparison between the two. Of course he did not forget that there would be the extra first cost upon railways of some £2,000 a mile, but that would be fully compensated for by the increased facilities of carriage. Holding these views, he could not offer any opposition to the Bill, neither did he intend to do so, but he must confess that he should have been much better pleased if the sums mentioned in the Bill had been less gigantic. He could not help thinking that the very fact of such large sums of money being dealt with, would have an injurious effect upon our credit in the outside world. Besides that, there was an immense difference between saying, "Here is a certain work which we consider it absolutely neces sary to carry out; it will cost so much, say one, two, or three millions, and we propose to borrow that sum for the purpose," and saying, "Give us twelve millions of money, and we will construct railways all over the country." He thought that such language would not tend to improve our credit wherever the loan was attempted to be raised. It would have been wiser to have mentioned a very much smaller sum, and to have clearly defined the work which was proposed to be carried out, before there was any attempt made to raise the loan. It appeared to him that the effect of that language was already apparent. Already the Government were being persecuted by their followers. They were actually flying from their own supporters, and, like the Parthian of old, were obliged to shoot a shaft as they retreated. He could not but think that unless some action were taken which would rescue the Government from this unfortunate position, this scheme, comprehensive as it was, great as was the grasp which it had taken, would fall by its own weight-the beautiful edifice which everybody had contemplated with admiration would tumble into ruins. If ever there was one duty more necessary than another for the Legislative Council to perform, it was that of rescuing the Government from the coercion to which it was being subjected, and it ought to take a determined stand, whatever might be the consequences. If it saw that the Government was being compelled to undertake works which they would not have recommended to the country of their own free and unbiassed will, then was the time for the Council "We will not permit this; we will not allow the country to be involved in liabilities for the purpose of constructing works which will probably be useless, which will cause a wasteful expenditure, and which will leave us nothing to bequeath to our children but debt, stagnation, and disgust." He spoke in such strong terins because he felt so keenly the immense injury which might be done to this country if the large sums which were mentioned in the Bill were not judiciously, wisely, honestly, and economically expended. It had been said that the Council represented the property and the conservative interests of the country. What was it that would have to bear

to say,

and

the burdens, the heat, and the sweat of the long day, if those glittering schemes should fail? The landed interest would have to bear it all. There was a great difference between the position of the home country and a young country such as this. In England there were millions of people who could be readily reached and brought under the tax gatherer's influence, but in New Zealand there was a large fluctuating gold fields population, here to-day and gone to-morrow, who could assist us in involving the country in an enormous liability, but who, when once we were plunged into debt, could do nothing whatever in the way of helping us to pay the interest upon it. When he reflected upon the enormous sums which were mentioned in this Bill, he must say that he did feel a little staggered, however great might be his confidence in the wisdom, and the prudence, and the honesty of purpose of the members of the Government. He could not but feel that when a Government undertook such an enormous expenditure, it was sure to be surrounded by an army of hungry applicants, who were looking after their own selfish and sordid interests; and it was that fear which made him feel and speak so strongly, and which made him determine that if he believed in his heart of hearts that the Government would be compelled to undertake any schemes which it did not really approve, it was his duty to cast aside all other considerations and oppose it tooth and nail. It was rather difficult to make out the actual sum which the Government proposed to raise as a cash loan, from the statement which had been made, although he admitted that in every other respect the statement of the honorable member had been most clear and distinct. The honorable gentleman told them that the amount of the cash loan was £4,000,000; that 2,500,000 acres of land were to be set aside for railway purposes; and that £5,500,000 was divisible into land, guarantees, purchases, subsidies, and what not. represented twelve millions of money. It was a pretty tidy sum to be made up of three items. It appeared to him that if they really did set apart two and a half millions of acres of land, a very great proportion of the five and a half millions of money must vanish, because when one and a half millions of acres were taken out of the Colony, it would be very difficult to find much more good land. Whether that was right or wrong, it came very much to the same thing as money in the long run, because, if so much land were set apart for those purposes, the revenue would be deprived of just so much. He did not profess to know any thing about the desirability of expending money upon waterworks for the gold fields. It might, perhaps, be a very wise thing, and he must be content to trust those who asserted that it would be reproductive. He must also be content to trust to the Government to carry out the proposal to purchase land in the North Island, as he was altogether ignorant of the subject, and he only hoped that that portion of the scheme would turn out well. Of course, everybody must concur in the proposal to construct roads in the North Island. With respect to immigration, he

That

thoroughly agreed with the remarks of his honor- | able friend Mr. Waterhouse, as to the very extensive powers which were taken, and he hoped sincerely that the Government would accept the amendments which he and other members might propose. It was notorious that the Colony laboured under great difficulties in regard to this question of labour. Both the employer and the employed had great reason to complain. The employer was subjected to an exorbitant rate for labour during the busy season, and the employed were unable to obtain work all through the year. That was very clear at the present moment. Large deputations of those who called themselves "the unemployed" were now besieging the Canterbury and Otago Governments. Let the Government therefore beware, when they commenced this scheme, of pouring men into the Colony in great numbers, without being quite certain that there was plenty of work for them to do, or they would be populating the neighbouring colonies at the expense of New Zealand. He hoped that when the Bill went into Committee the Government would give its serious attention to the amendments which were about to be proposed. He believed that there was not a single member of the Council who was not anxious to render every possible assistance so as to make this measure useful, workable, and feasible; but it must be evident to the most ordinary understanding that, situated as the Government of this country was, it was subjected to political influences against which it was absolutely necessary that some protection should be afforded. It seemed to him that it would be wise and prudent to follow the course which had been taken by the Government of Victoria when the railways were inaugurated in that colony, and however necessary it might have been to create a board of works in that colony, to decide upon all matters relating to public works, it was infinitely more necessary to adopt some such system in New Zealand. He found the following in the report of the board of land and works for the Colony of Victoria, dated November, 1862 :

"The Committee prosecuted the inquiry with diligence, and on the 27th of the same month brought up their report.

“They agreed with the House of Assembly that main trunk lines of railway for the colony should be constructed as soon as possible, and that they be must be constructed by the state.

"That the two lines proposed by the Government, and sanctioned by the Assembly, i.e., from Melbourne to the River Murray, and from Geelong to Ballaarat, were those best calculated for opening up the country.

"That the lines should be made in a substantial manner, with a double track of rails; and they saw no objection to the proposed issue of debentures for raising the necessary funds.

"An Act was also passed to establish a board of land and works. This established the board of land and works-to consist of not less nor more than five persons, who should consider and determine all matters relating to the adoption of any plans and specifications for public works, and

should decide upon the acceptance of all tenders for such works, and the terms upon which the same should be accepted, together with the nature and amount of security to be given for the performance of any contract arising out of the same."

He thought that some such course would not only be wise to adopt here, but absolutely necessary. Of course, theoretically, the board of works would be subject to the control of the Assembly, but if the members of the board were able and first-class men, the board would practically become a kind of arbiter in those furious disputes between different parts of the Colony, and he believed that, in nine cases out of ten, their decision would be accepted as final; at any rate, he could see no other way of carrying out the scheme with any reasonable prospect of economy and success. He could not forbear alluding, for one moment, to the telegram which had been received from the Commissioners, to the following effect :

"London, 13th June, 1870. "Guarantee Million Loan Bill not yet drafted. Our proposals are that the loan is not to bear more than 4 per cent. interest; not more than 200,000 to be raised in any one year; the sinking fund of 1 per cent. not to commence until after expiration of ten years, or until the whole million has been raised, whichever happens first; the whole to be expended on immigration, roads, bridges, and communications. We don't yet know whether these proposals are accepted by Treasury, but Cabinet really anxious to assist Colony. Let Assembly pass an Act authorizing loan of million to be expended on immigration, roads, bridges, and communications."

It certainly did appear to him that if the Commissioners were not in the confidence of the Government, they would be pretty considerably astonished when they came out, and the present Bill would appear to them like a burlesque upon that telegram. While they were talking gravely about raising a million of money, and not more than £200,000 in any one year, the Government was proposing an expenditure of £13,540,000! That amount he made up in the following way :Cash loan £4,000,000 Land 2,500,000

...

Land and guarantee Defence

Floating debt

Total

Adding that amount to the present debt of the Colony, we should be in for £20,500,000. It was quite clear that, however much we might progress,

he did not mean to say that we should not progress; God forbid that he should think so; if he did he should not like to stay in the Colony-even if the various works paid interest, we should have to double our revenue to be in the same position in which we were now. He had heard this question of immigration discussed publicly and privately in all kinds of ways. People always referred to the labouring class only, forgetting the immense number of families which

were spread over England, possessed of various sums of money, from £5,000 to £30,000; people who paid from £150 to £200 a year house rent; who would be only too delighted if they could come and settle in a country like this, where they could find occupations for themselves. Did they fancy that they were going the right way to work to invite such a population? They might come out if they heard that a moderate sum was to be expended in constructing railways, but they would not do so if they knew that the whole of the revenue might be swallowed up in interest, and that the country would have to find some means for doubling its revenue when the money had been all expended. The Council represented that class of people, and he would ask honorable members how many of their friends had come out to join them during the last few years? They would not come out. True, the reason he had suggested had not been that which had actuated them hitherto, but they would take it into consideration in the future. They heard by every mail of the enormous number of young men who could not find employment, and this was the very country for them to come to. They would not, however, come out, if they were deprived of the hope," as Mr. Bright has said, "of a free breakfast table for the rest of their lives." He had endeavoured to express what he really thought, but he was afraid that he had done so in a very imperfect manner. He could assure the Government that in anything he had said he did not wish to imply any distrust as to their action, but he knew from experience that where very large sums were to be expended, the greatest possible prudence and foresight was required to avoid a tremendous waste of money. He had therefore felt it necessary to guard himself, in supporting the second reading of this Bill, from being committed to any future support, if he found that the Government were being compelled to undertake schemes which they would not have recommended of their own free will.

The Hon. Mr. GRAY said that he approached the consideration of this subject with very great diffidence; but as the debate seemed likely to collapse unless some one came forward, he would endeavour to state his opinions upon the question. He viewed with very great fear the possible effect and result of the Bill now under their consideration, not because of the magnitude of the scheme in itself-though that, he thought, might well make them pause before they gave effect to this measure-but because he feared chiefly the effect of giving to a Parliament, constituted as ours is, such vast borrowing powers as were provided for under this Bill. We have seen, during the last few days, something of the danger to be anticipated in that direction. Pressure has been brought to bear upon the Government by the Provinces and the Superintendents of Provinces, and that was only a foretaste of what they would see in the time to come. He did not wish to animadvert harshly on the Government, but he thought they had in this matter shown a great, if not a culpable, weakness in giving way to that pressure. He would ask what guarantee had they that any future Parliament-and this Bill, be it remem

bered, particularly provided that future Parliaments should deal with this matter-would be better constituted than the present one, and would not be influenced by the same considerations. He thought, looking to the fact that, as a Parliament, they were merely the representatives of the Provinces, that a satisfactory answer could not be given to that question. Nothing like an absence of corruption could be hoped for. On the contrary, he believed that the knowledge that such a large sum was open for distribution would have the effect of rendering our legislation reckless, and it would also encourage the extravagant demands of local bodies who, when such a tempting bait was laid before their eyes, would certainly scramble for it in the fear that, if they did not at once put in their claim, they might be shut out from the distribution altogether. He did not propose to deal with the details of the Bill, inasmuch as he was not well up in figures, and did not possess the practical knowledge which would justify him in so doing. He would rather confine himself to the general principles of the measure. There was no doubt that there was a very great fascination to many minds in the grandeur, the brilliancy, and the boldness of a scheme of this description, and, more than that, there was very much to be said in favour of the development of the country by the expenditure of large loans of that kind. He was fully alive to that fact which had, in the first instance, indeed, recommended the scheme to his mind; but, upon further consideration, he must say that his opinion was altered to a very considerable extent. He believed, if a large expenditure of this kind were properly administered, that very good results would follow. That opinion had been expressed by many honorable members as the very point at issue, and he, for his part, heartily agreed with it. He felt that they were called upon to take a plunge in a "shut your eyes and trust to provi dence style," and he would like to know where they would land. That was the principal consideration. The fact is that we have been so chastened and kept low by the many afflictions that we have suffered during the last two or three years, first, by the enormous costs which have been entailed upon us, and the heavy taxation consequent upon the Native war, and secondly, by the commercial depression from which we, in common with a very large proportion of the world, and especially of these colonies, have suffered, that we are thoroughly weary and heartsick, and are ready to jump at the tempting bait, the brilliant future, the great hopes that are held out to us. Notwithstanding that, his great fear was, that after providing all those great facilities for transport and for the opening up and developing of the country we should find, with respect to the rest of the world, that our market was in the same position which it was at present. It was proposed to provide great facilities for taking our produce to our ports, but that in itself would not make us rich unless at those ports there was a profitable market for our produce. He thought it would be generally admitted that the products of our soil had been raised at a

loss-in many cases, at a very considerable lossto the producers; and the facilities which it was proposed to provide, although they might somewhat diminish the loss, would not make the difference between profit and loss. If, for instance, a product was now being grown at a loss of, say, one shilling per bushel-as it was, he believed, in many cases, in the matter of cerealsfacilities were provided which enabled the farmer to bring it to market at threepence a bushel less than at present, it was manifest that he still grew it at a loss, and there was, therefore, nothing to stimulate or increase the production. It might be that the vast outlay which was proposed might stimulate new industries, might develop new sources of wealth, and it might, as a matter of course, bring after it a large and prosperous population-a population containing an element of permanence in it, who, being prosperous themselves, might lighten the burden of our taxation. He hoped that such might be the result. They also might, and certainly would, in that event, provide a market for us at our own doors for some portion at least of our now superabundant productions. That would be the realization of our hopes. That was the idea, doubtless, which actuated the mind of the very able originator of this scheme, and he gave the Government credit for the ability it had shown in the initiation of this scheme, although he feared that in detail it would break down. He would entreat the Council to pause before giving this Bill the effect of law. If such a result as he had depicted did not come about as the natural consequence of the operation of this measure, we should be utterly "smashed up." Honorable members laugh-well, the expression might not be exactly parliamentary, but there were no other words which would explain his meaning so well. He maintained that the blow would be fatal. It was idle to suppose that the scheme of immigration proposed in the Bill would bring about the results which many sanguine persons prophecied of it. The amount of population brought in by that means would do very little to lighten the burden of our taxation, unless coincidently with this scheme of immigration, and consequent on the inherent attractions of these islands as a field for colonization, enhanced as they might be by the artificial advantages sought to be given by this measure, there might settle permanently in the Colony a large population which would find profitable occupation. Unless this result should follow, he felt certain this scheme was much too large. He would only trouble the Council with one other point, and that was one which most honorable members would agree with him was an important though a disagreeable one, namely, the opinion which was commonly expressed abroad that, no matter what happened, the Bill would have the immediate effect, if put into force, of increasing the value of all property, and thus enable people to take advantage of the artificial prosperity it would produce, to dispose of their property and clear out. He had heard, with feelings of shame and sorrow, this opinion expressed. Anything more utterly

selfish and unpatriotic could hardly be given utterance to; but honorable members must not shut their eyes to the existence of this feeling, and he thought it indicated that the people of this country were not heart-whole in their support of this scheme, but that they merely looked upon it as a means of relief from present suffering. For the reasons he had stated he would feel bound, from his conscientious convictions, to go the extreme length of voting against the second reading of the Bill.

The Hon. Captain FRASER said that every honorable member was expected to express an opinion upon this, the most important measure which had ever been brought before the Legislature, and it was the more requisite because he doubted very much if they had seen any real expression of opinion elsewhere. All healthy opposition seemed to have melted like snow before the glittering millions. He could not better illustrate the unhappy feeling in the Parliament than by relating an occurrence which took place in a small town in Scotland. Some children were in the habit of playing in the street, one of whom did not appear to be a favourite; but a day arrived when her companions crowded around her and appeared to admire her immensely. A little companion joined the group, and, seeing the unusual occurrence, naturally asked, "What is all this ?" Let honorable gentlemen mark the reply. The reply-which showed the depth of the meanness of the human heart-was, "Mary has found a penny." It was supposed that she would immediately invest in sweets, and all her little friends expected to participate in the benefits of the discovery. The Colonial Treasurer (Mr. Vogel) had found a penny. He was stampedoed to death by persons seeking employment in various ways, and he was dying from the embarras de richesses. He might say that he intended to support the second reading of the Bill. He was in favour of progress. He approved of the best part of the scheme, and would reserve to himself the right to propose, in Committee, any amendment which he might deem necessary. However, to be concise, he might say that, with one exception, he approved of all the proposed expenditure in the North Island. He was, however, not favourable to the inauguration of an extensive system of railway construction in a thinly populated, poor country. Six years ago he visited an empire from which twenty countries like New Zealand could be taken without being missed, and there only sixty miles of railway had been constructed. He repeated that he was entirely averse to the inauguration of a great railway system in a poor country. Let them take, for example, the much-vaunted Clutha railway, which it was proposed to construct in Otago. If any railway would pay that would. It would pass through the richest part of the Province-which was essentially an agricultural district-it would also pass through a large flourishing town which would become the entrepôt of the up-country produce, and there were no engineering difficulties. Nevertheless, with all those advantages, he was satisfied that the Clutha railway would not pay expenses for many years, and