Committee, reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed.

STAMP DUTIES BILL.

Mr. VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that its object was to afford in creased facilities by enabling persons to make use of adhesive stamps. Inquiries had been addressed to the Government from various quarters whether it would do much injury to the revenue to return to the use of adhesive stamps on bills of exchange. There was no doubt that the use of impressed stamps was productive of very great inconvenience. After much thought, a very ingenious suggestion had been made by Mr. Batkin, paymaster-general and secretary of the stamp department, that Bills might be stamped | by the use of the adhesive stamp, but that it should be necessary for the acceptors to write part of their signature over the stamp and part over the paper on both sides, failing which the bill would be invalid. A clause to that effect was being prepared, and he was glad to think that, without the revenue suffering, they would be able to afford such a convenience to persons engaged in business throughout the Colony.

The Bill was read a second time, and considered in Committee. Progress was made and reported, and leave given to sit again next sitting day.

SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

On the motion of Mr. VOGEL, this Bill was read a second time, considered in Committee, reported with amendments, which were agreed to, and the Bill read a third time, and passed.

QUALIFICATION OF ELECTORS BILL. Mr. VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it had already been explained by the Premier. It was in effect a declaratory Act to remove doubts which had arisen as to the exact nature of the qualification of electors, and in some cases as to the qualification of members. It was, at the same time, thought desirable to insert a clause to make clear very involved questions with regard to the position of electors holding miners' rights. It was provided that the holder of a miner's right in any Province should have a vote within the electoral district in which that right was issued, provided it was held for six months. The miners' rights would be stamped, so that they could not be used for the purpose of voting in another district within the period of six months, and miners could not vote by virtue of the miners' right in any district in which they held another qualification. They could only hold one franchise in any Province under the miner's right. The Bill made that point clear, so as to prevent the fraudulent use of the miner's right. There was another clause of importance to miners, which provided that a person qualified to vote, as the holder of a miner's right, was eligible to be a candidate for election to the House of Assembly and to the Provincial Council of the Province within which the miner's right was issued.

Mr. HALL had not seen the Bill, and he wished

to know whether the effect of the Bill was to allow a miner to vote at an election for any district in the Province in which his miner's right had been issued. If that were the case, miners might vote in Dunedin by virtue of miners' rights issued on the gold fields. He did not think that would be a proper exercise of a miner's vote.

Mr. VOGEL said if there were no special gold fields districts established, then the right to vote in any part of the Province belonged to the holder of a miner's right. He could not vote in different districts, and could not exercise the same franchise more than once in six months. If the Bill were read a second time, he would not ask for its committal until next sitting day, in order that honorable members might have an opportunity of considering its provisions.

Mr. DIGNAN would support the Bill if the exercise of the franchise by virtue of miners' rights was confined to districts within the proclaimed gold fields. It would not be doing justice in the Province of Auckland that those holding miners' rights within a proclaimed gold field should have the right to vote in any of the other districts of the Province by virtue of their miners' rights, nor yet would it be advisable that the holders of miners' rights, having no other qualification, should be eligible for election as candidates for the Provincial Council or House of Representatives, except for the gold field district in which the miner's right was exercisable.

Mr. KYNNERSLEY said a provision might be inserted in the Bill by which it would be necessary for a miner to reside continuously for two months in the district in which he wished to vote. It would not be fair that miners, who were always represented in that House to be a wandering class of people, should be restricted to vote only in the district in which they took out their miners' rights.

The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed next sitting day.

SUPPLY.

The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from His Excellency the Governor, transmitting a statement of the unauthorized expenditure for the years 1868-69 and 1869-70; also, supplementary estimates for the financial year 1870-71, and requesting that provision should be made for the same.

The message was referred to the Committee of Supply.

On the motion of Mr. VOGEL, the House went into Committee of Supply.

IN COMMITTEE.

CLASS II.-PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.
Provincial Charges.

Receiver of Revenue, Westland, £400.

Mr. VOGEL said that this item had been postponed at the instance of the honorable member for Westland South, who had moved that the amount be reduced by £300. Since then, the Government had made arrangements by which

To

occasions from a false economy they had cut down the Native estimates to such an extent that it was utterly impossible to manage Native affairs, and in following sessions, to remedy this, would vote three times the amount previously required. That was a most changeable, wild, and extravagant policy to adopt. When the Natives were in a transition state from war to tranquillity and peace, an expenditure in the direction indicated was most valuable-more valuable than the expenditure of a quarter of a million annually in war. object to the small sum of £5,000 for purposes which honorable members must know were neces sarily associated with the administration and management of Native affairs was not wise economy on the part of the House. He believed the sum was much too small, and he was only sorry he had not asked for a larger vote; for he considered the House could not more wisely expend money than in maintaining tranquillity throughout the country by making ample provision for Native purposes. The Government had endeavoured to bring down the most economical estimates. There was no part of the country which so much required the expenditure of that money as that which the honorable member for Mongonui represented. For many years there had been in Auckland perfect isolation on the part of the Natives. They never visited the place, and all intercourse with the Europeans was stopped; and now, when the Natives were beginning to open up friendly communication, were we to say to them, "No, we will continue the isolation; when you visit our towns we shall not countenance you." Would it be wise to drive the Maoris into the recesses of the country, there to maintain an unfriendly attitude? He thought not; and when the Government now proposed that a reasonable sum should be voted towards conciliating those people, he hoped the House would see the propriety and justice of voting it. Through the false economy hitherto pursued, the estimates had been increasing year after year. For instance, in the years 1858-59 the expenditure was £11,100; in 1859-60, £17,140; in 186061, £17,800; in 1861-62, £25,370; in 1862-63, £53,410; in 1863-64, £52,600; and in 1864-65, £60,290, and this, too, when the same cry for retrenchment was made, but which was found impossible. They had also expended immense sums on war which might have been averted by manifesting a little liberality towards the Natives, and dealing with them in that kindly spirit which they themselves so cheerfully displayed to persons who visited their part of the country. If they dealt in an exclusive spirit towards the Natives, if they had no officers amongst them to administer English law, they would set up a distinctive jurisdiction and nationality of their own and avoid all intercourse with us; and the expenditure that would be entailed by not meeting their small wants and requirements in time, would be considerably more than the very moderate sum now placed on the estimates for that purpose.

Mr. BUNNY said there was a strong feeling in the minds of some honorable members and throughout the country that they should, as far

as possible, put a stop to that hotbed treatment of the Native race, and that they should be treated as British subjects. He should like to know whether the vote would not be trenched upon until after the £7,000 on the civil list had been expended. He thought the item might well be reduced to a certain extent. He thought the Natives themselves would be more satisfied if the Native commissioners and other officers were abolished, as they did a great deal of mischief. The Natives deceived them, and they, in turn, deceived the Government, by false information.

Mr. RICHMOND said that during the last two years the Native estimates had been reduced partly by expending the balance to the credit of the civil list fund. Honorable members might see in this matter the fallacy of the common practice of supposing that they could wash their hands of responsibility for their action. In 1861 the Legislature by special Act appropriated a large sum for several years, for certain Native purposes. The policy was the runanga system, or new institutions." The House-for it was idle to attempt to throw the responsibility entirely on the Government-chose to go into that particular policy, and now nearly the whole of the £7,000 was expended in pensioning off the officers whom the House had established. He agreed with the Native Minister that it would be exceedingly silly and false economy to greatly reduce the votes now. Let it be done gradually. The Native estimates were not so much as they were three or four years ago. It was a great mistake to think that they could, off-hand, make Europeans of the Natives. They were a different race, and it took a great many years to alter their manners, and make them fit to come under our law. That could only be done by dealing with them, to some extent, in the manner of protectors, reconciling them to us by degrees.

Mr. BUNNY was not prepared to agree to any thing without due consideration. They were yearly increasing the expenditure on account of the Natives. He did not wish to put a stop to necessary expenditure as regarded the Natives, but he thought the time was come when they should gradually reduce that expenditure, and do away with the flour and sugar policy. He objected to the expenditure incurred in keeping up a staff of mischievous men called Native com missioners. Supposing, for the sake of illustration, that his honorable friend the member for Mongonui or himself were to become Native Minister, where should they get their information from? From these Native commissioners-these Parrises and Booths-who were deceived by the Natives, and then deceived the Government, by false information. He wanted to relieve the Colony from keeping up a mischievous staff that did no goodwhose efforts were more likely to keep up agitation and to foment disturbances among the Nativesand he believed it was part of the stock-in-trade of those gentlemen to keep things so.

Mr. RICHMOND said that if the honorable member would only go into figures, and ascertain how many of those dreadfully mischievous agents were employed, he would find that the number

was exceedingly small. The bulk of the officers detailed in the estimates were Maori assessors, police, and messengers. Whether the policy of employing them were wise or foolish he should not then inquire, but it was, at all events, a policy which could not be upset at once; all they could do now was to avoid filling up vacancies as they arose, and thus letting the thing gradually collapse. The Government of which he (Mr. Richmond) was a member expended a portion of the vote for Native contingencies on roads. There were many ways in which money might be spent for the real advantage of the Natives otherwise than in sugar and blankets, which the honorable gentleman disliked so much. They might encourage them by a bonus on their industry, and induce them to improve their own lands. The House did not hesitate to encourage European "native industry" by bonus. There was one tribe in particular which was exceedingly active, and could be made to do almost anything when money was to be earned; he meant the Arawa tribe. He believed that if bonuses were granted for native industries, a great deal might be done with the Natives.

Mr. GILLIES trusted that the Committee would acquit him of any desire to cut down any fair and useful expenditure upon the Natives, and he trusted that they would also acquit him of any desire to do anything to prejudice the relations existing between the two races. That was an amount which had, to a large extent, been expended in the Province of which he was the representative, but it was to the principle he objected. It was impossible to elevate the character of the Natives, or to raise them in the scale of society, by teaching them to depend upon the Government for sugar and flour; that was the surest way to degrade them. They had tried for years the coddling system of food, clothing, travelling expenses, and medical comforts, but it had failed. The main issue was this, that this system of treating the Natives as children ought to be abandoned--that they ought to treat the Natives as men like themselves, and then they might have something like a chance of dealing with them reasonably. If they were to deal with the Natives with any hope of doing them good, of civilizing them and making them better than they were, they should abandon at once and for ever that flour and sugar policy. If they dealt fairly and honorably with the Natives, the Natives would deal fairly and honorably with them. That was the proper mode of dealing with them, and not treating them with flour and sugar, and then robbing them of their lands.

Mr. McLEAN said, with reference to the remarks which fell from the honorable member for Wairarapa, reflecting upon the conduct of certain officers connected with the Native department, that it was poor encouragement to men who devoted so much of their time to the performance of thankless duties-exposing their lives to danger, and preventing outbreaks which, but for them, would scarcely have been prevented by the presence of a strong force. Among the officers referred to by the honorable member, there was

one who had, in the Province of Taranaki, performed many hazardous services at the risk of his life, and who was well known to successive Governments. He could not hear Mr. Parris or any other officer spoken of in that manner without raising his voice against it. They had per formed their duty zealously and deserved to be well spoken of by the House, for they had been the means of saving the country thousands of pounds in war expenses. He (Mr. McLean) was not an advocate for flour and sugar, and had spent less in that direction than most Native Ministers; but experience had taught them in New Zealand, as well as in America, that it was much cheaper to feed than to fight people. If that policy had been consistently followed, New Zealand would not have been burdened with the heavy debt which she now had to bear. He thought it would be apparent, even to honorable members from the furthest quarter of the Middle Island, that it would be better to maintain a friendly feeling with the Natives than one of irritation, and thus do away with that apprehen. sion which was felt in the old country, that New Zealand was not a safe place to settle or to make investments in. So long as any irritation existed this idea of insecurity would continue; but much might be done by extending the hand of friendship, and greater consideration, towards the race amongst whom it was our destiny to be settled.

Mr. KELLY regretted to hear the remarks of the honorable member for Wairarapa in reference to Mr. Parris, for if any man in the Colony had been influential for good with the Native race more than another, Mr. Parris was that man. He had given very little flour and sugar in the district over which he presided. He (Mr. Kelly) was among the Natives with that gentleman, and observed on all occasions the singular influence he had over them. This year he persuaded the Natives to allow the Government to construct a road from Patea to Umuroa, and from Stony River to Warea, and by continued intercourse with the Natives in their own districts he had succeeded in persuading them to allow the road to be taken, and it had been taken within a short distance of the whole. It should be taken into consideration that the Maoris were a different race from the Europeans, and had been in arms against them, and did not understand their language, customs, or laws, and were therefore inclined to keep separate; and unless they kept up intercourse with the Natives through persons who understood their manners and customs, and modes of thought, they would in many instances remain isolated.

Mr. GILLIES hoped honorable members would not be misled by the remarks of the Defence Minis. ter to entertain the idea that the reduction of such a vote as that had anything to do with friendly or unfriendly feelings towards the Native race. The Native Minister had put the case well when he said that it was cheaper to feed than to fight men; but the question was, were they to feed men to enable them to fight those who fed them. He had not the slightest idea of treating them in an unfriendly spirit when he proposed to reduce

that vote. It was by treating them as children, and dealing with them on the lollypop system, that the mischief was done, for the moment they did not get their accustomed dole they took up arms. It seemed to him that the Native officers were unable to comprehend that; they had got into a habit of looking upon the Natives, not as men but as children. He would have no objection to leave in the hands of the Native Minister a sufficient sum to enable the great chiefs who visited the capital to live comfortably while in town, but £5,000 was more than necessary for that purpose, and more than the Government would lay out in legitimate expenses of that kind. But it was not more than could be expended by a Government illegitimately on matters of that sort, and for such expenditure a return had not been laid on the table of the House, which had been done once, when he did not think it redounded very much to the credit of the dispensers.

Mr. ROLLESTON did not think that was a fit occasion for discussing the Native policy. The country had determined to place the Native Minister in his present position, and would trust him so long as he was there. It was a very thankless office if a Minister had to come down and fight what was called the Native policy over small departmental details like the one under discussion. He considered the sum of £5,000 a very small one for the purpose for which it was intended. It was absolutely impossible to deal with the Natives at all without showing them hospitality, and that penurious system of grudging such an expenditure as the present was not calculated to have a good effect. They might in the other estimates strike off postal services and telegraph offices without general injury to the Colony, where they had their own peculiar ideas on the subject, but the Native question was one which he hoped the South would not interfere with. It had been cast in their teeth from time to time that the continuance of the Native disturbance had been owing to a desire on the part of the South to curtail the expenditure, and he hoped that none of them on that occasion would lend themselves to restricting the powers which were asked for by the Native Minister in the management of Native affairs. It would be an ungracious act at the present time to do so. If, after having got Native affairs into a state of quiescence, by a paltry economy they caused discontent, they would have themselves to blame for it. It had not been the Native departmental expenditure that had created the war, but because the plain, honest, and fair course alluded to by the honorable member for Mongonui had had to give way to political exigencies. That was what had given rise to the Native difficulties, and not the system of showing hospitality and spending such paltry sums of the nature proposed among a population of from 30,000 to 40,000 people. The House had itself to blame in a great measure for the evils that had arisen. Whenever any question had arisen in the House affecting political interests on the one hand, as compared with the interests of the Natives on the other, they had let the interests

Another thing

of the Natives go to the wall. which had interfered with the peace of the country had been the grasping greed of individuals for land.

Mr. BUNNY said the Native Minister and the honorable member for New Plymouth had found fault with his reference to the Native commis. sioners. He maintained that every member of the Committee had a perfect right, in discussing such an important question as our relations with the Native race, to refer to any class of officers in the employ of the Government, and to mention them by name, in order to show how important it was that they should exactly know not only the position of those officers, but arrive at their influence among the Natives, and form some opinion of the correctness of the reports which they had sent in to the Government. They had only to refer to a report laid upon the table last session or the session before from Commissioner Booth, of his interview with Titokowaru some four or five months prior to his breaking out in open rebellion. The despatch was to the effect that Titokowaru was the most peaceful, harmless, and innocent individual that it was possible to meet. (No.) The words of that despatch were nearly as follows: That Titokowaru had come in and placed his arms at the feet of Commissioner Booth, and that he was about to proceed to the four corners of the Island to secure peace; that, as long as they had Titokowaru on their side, there was no chance of any war. Then it was their duty to see whether they were going to keep up a system which was utterly false in giving the Government of the day the slightest reliable information as regarded the action of the Natives. He did not want to discuss Native policies. He wanted to knock Native policies on the head, and let the Natives alone to make their own way in the world as other men did. They did not want to be led by strings, and compelled to go from one commissioner to another. The Natives laughed at the Government for such an action as that. He had heard an expression used by a Native within the last four months with regard to the Government, to the effect that they were not the fools, but that the Government were the fools. Honorable members had a perfect right to set their faces against expenditure which was mischievous to the country and injurious to the Native race.

Mr. MOORHOUSE said to discuss the Native policy upon such items was a very clumsy way of doing the work. Their business was to discuss the item before them, and to take it for what it meant in the estimates. He was sorry to find the word "rebel" occurring in the estimates, but, however, he supposed the Native race were distributed into subjects and rebels. If they were subjects, they would be simply extending to them the same comforts which they gave to the European race. In the Province of Canterbury, an amount about equal to that under discussion was dispensed in charitable aids upon a population of about the same number as the Native race, and he thought that £5,000 was a very small sum for the purposes for which it was intended. If he might be allowed to go into the question of