variety of objections raised to this scheme. One was suggested by the honorable member for Manuherikia. That honorable member doubts, in his anxiety for the wants of his constituency, whether the Ministry of the day has covered the whole of the ground. He anticipates great difficulty from the fact that, owing to the remarkably complicated land system, the people who are to be imported under this scheme will not find settlement. Well, Sir, that is a difficulty; but surely that difficulty must be as patent to the Administration as to anybody else. Although everything cannot be done in a moment, is it not probable that, under a full apprehension of that difficulty, the honorable gentlemen who are intrusted with the government of the country will address themselves to that difficulty, and take means, supported by the voice of the country, to overcome it? I can well imagine that, in future sessions, this or a succeeding Government will come down probably stronger in the confidence of the country than the present Government, having reconciled all sorts of conflicting interests between rival Superintendents and rival claimants upon the public purse, having reconciled, by a just course of reasoning, all those conflicts of interest which stand in the way of great public measures at the present time, and that some scheme will be adopted which will have the effect of placing the very considerable resources of this country at the disposal of the Government with a view to the introduction of a larger population. I am a supporter of the present Government because in another part of the Colony, before I came up here recently, I was delighted and astonished to read the material policy of the Government, as published in an interesting book connected with this House. I had the greatest possible sympathy with the gentlemen who had undertaken such an arduous duty. I knew very well all the necessary incidents of their position. I knew the very great trials they would have to go through during the passage of this measure, if they were successful at all. I knew the great temptation which is to be found in the consciousness of present power. I knew very well that they would be tempted on all sides by supporters-by the means, in fact, by which they floated in success at the commencement-to surrender that trust which this House has effectively given them in the interests of the whole Colony. I knew that they might be led to make concessions which apparently only involved a present sacrifice, but which might have a prospective value and weight, and which might frustrate the usefulness of their whole policy, and render it utterly inoperative and void. I have, however, no fear of the capacity of the present Government, and I am bound as a supporter to say so, having read this scheme and observed how consistent are its various parts, and how they evidence the greatest possible ingenuity and the exercise of the most deliberate judgment. I am bound to say that my judgment quite justifies me in running the risk of indorsing this scheme, and of expressing my intention, whenever an opportunity occurs, of assisting the Government in attempting to escape from those dangers which always sur round such a great scheme as the present. The confidence which I feel in the Government is justified by their administration up to the present moment. I cannot sympathize in the least with the hope expressed by the honorable member for Grey and Bell. I very much regret that that honorable member holds such views, because, from his antecedents and from his known capacity and great experience in this Colony, there is not the slightest doubt that some weight must attach to what is read in Hansard, and Hansard will be read in London. It is a very fortunate thing that Hansard is to be read, for some doubting, croaking, and feminine minds might possibly be affected by arguments used by the leading opponents of this measure. The laugh, in my humble opinion, will not be as against this Legislature, but against those gentlemen who, however conscientious, are standing in the position of men who might be called feeble and timid. The English man of business, you may rely upon it, would never lend one shilling because of the arguments of those who proposed this measure, nor decline lending because of the arguments of those who opposed it; but their conduct as men of business will be to obtain such evidence as is necessary to enable them to form a judgment as to the security of their money. Those who lead public opinion, as it has been called, though there is no public opinion in the matter, are men of the very greatest possible capacity. The merchant prince, the head of a great mercantile establishment in Europe, having correspondence with all parts of the world, is a giant in comparison even with some of the very distinguished honorable members of this House. In that view of the case I feel perfectly confident, notwithstanding what may be stated by those gentlemen who feel themselves justified in expressing doubtful opinions, that the Colonial Treasurer will be successful in his operations in the London money market. I believe, with the honorable members on the opposition side of the House, that this is a very serious business indeed, and agree with them as to the necessity of having effective administration. There is not the slightest doubt the whole country will be extremely anxious to find every seat in the Cabinet filled by men who are entitled to the confidence of the country on the score of their political antecedents. I think the less we make attacks upon our colleagues on the score of antecedents and political miscarriages the better; but we should not forget them. We ought to have an understanding on these matters, and ought to consider the whole story of a man's career in legislation. We ought to remember who had the responsibility of involving the country in three millions of a loan, to be spent in gunpowder and throat-cutting, but we should say as little about it as possible. I remember, in 1862, under a feeling as strong as that which influences the honorable member for Gladstone, standing up in this House, night after night, speaking in the strongest possible terms in condemnation of a policy which it was said by the then Administration would be a cost to the country of some few hundred thousand pounds, and which I pro nounced, at that time, would eventuate in a cost | Otago southern trunk line, or of any other railof three millions, and which did, in the following session, call for a loan of three millions. I believe, now, we are going to incur a large debt and a serious responsibility; and I believe, considering the case very fairly, we have very fair grounds for expecting ample returns for the capital we borrow. way, could not be considered in connection with the Government measures. The honorable member for the Hutt may not exactly see the effect of what he has said; but the Government do see it. Of course, it is not for me to say or suggest that the views of the honorable member are tinged by the fact that the railway from Wellington to Mr. VOGEL.-My task in replying upon this the Hutt is not one of those for which it is prodiscussion is a very simple one indeed, for the posed to take power this session; but I do think opposition which the Bill has met with has that he does not see the necessity which presses drawn forth speeches from the honorable mem- upon the Government to ask the House to conber for Auckland City West, the honorable sider, during this session, the construction of member for Wairarapa, and the honorable mem- certain railways. But let us look at the position ber for Christchurch, which have, I venture to of Canterbury and of Otago in the matter. Each say with the utmost confidence, improved the of those Provinces already has powers which position of the Government measures. Some would enable it to go on with the construction of honorable members of the opposition, desiring railways during the recess; and it is quite certain, to damage those measures, have indulged in a if nothing else is done, that those Provinces would parting shot, evidently under the impression that use their powers during the recess. What would it would not be deemed worthy of à reply; but be the result of that? It would be to upset, that parting shot has drawn forth answers from probably, that equilibrium which we have sucdifferent points of the House, vindicating the ceeded in establishing during the present session, policy of the session, so that it is not necessary by the measures of the Government. If left to for me to detain the House by a lengthened reply themselves, Canterbury and Otago will go in for to what has been said adversely to that policy. I railways on their own account-they will do so must, however, refer to the remarks of the honor- upon extravagant systems probably, because they able member for the Hutt (Mr. Ludlam)—who are not in a position to get their lines constructed, I regret to see is not now in the House-implying or to borrow money for constructing them, advanthat the Government were guilty of a breach of tageously; and once such steps are taken, those faith in proposing to proceed with the construc- Provinces would probably refuse to become partion of certain lines during the ensuing recess. Ities to a system designed to be, and which we say give an unqualified denial to the assertion or suggestion, that there has been any breach of faith in the matter. What the Government stated to the House, at an earlier period of the session, was that, at the desire of a majority, as they believed, of the House, or at all events of a minority which might be obstructive, the Government would not mix up with the discussion of the Immigration and Public Works Bill, any proposals for specific railways. I think that, on the whole, that decision has not proved an unwise one, seeing the very large amount of local jealousy which has since arisen in connection with the discussion of particular lines of railway. We never did state that we would refuse to the House, or to ourselves, power of discussing the construction of certain railways during the present session. We carried out the view which we took, and which we plainly stated to the House. At a very large meeting of supporters of the Government proposals, representing, I think, a majority of the House-certainly a majority of the members in Wellingtonwhen the modifications proposed to be made in the Government policy were read, it was asked by the honorable member for Clutha, whether those modifications precluded the consideration, during the present session, of the question of constructing the Otago southern trunk railway from Dunedin to the Clutha. The reply we gave was, that we would not then take such a question into consideration one way or the other that all the Government then said was, that until the Immigration and Public Works Bill had been passed, the question of the construction of the is, applicable to the whole of the Colony. I do road metal only that it might be sunk in swamps of mud-determined not longer to keep its upcountry settlers at a disadvantage through paying enormous sums for the carriage of their supplies, -Otago, I say, would, if left unaided, assuredly have entered into railway engagements during the coming recess. Can any honorable member realize what will be the saving, in Otago alone, from enabling the up-country settlers to obtain supplies at a reasonable rate of carriage, such as would be most profitable if paid for carriage on a railway? It would be an enormous saving: and is not such a saving an element to be taken into consideration, when the money cost of constructing railways is being estimated? Necessity, I say, forces upon the Government and the House, during this session, the consideration of constructing certain railways. But now the honorable member for Grey and Bell moves that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. I wish I could think that the honorable member's opposition was, I will not say of a conscientious nature, but of a public-spirited nature; but when I look to his whole course during the session in relation to the Government measures, I am forced to recognize that he has displayed an utter want of public spirit. He talks now of a "profligate and gambling" policy: but when the measures of the Government were first brought down, and the House was asked to decide whether or not it would this session proceed with the consideration of those measures, had the honorable member then the courage to say that he thought it not desirable the House should so proceed, and to challenge a vote upon the question? No. The honorable member made a speech, in one-half of which he abused the Government policy in every conceivable way, while in the other half he took the opposite view, that that policy was the result of a filching, or an adoption, of his own views. But as the session has progressed- as the honorable member's glimpses of office, and even of a return to this House, have become more and more obscured he has grown desperate; and now he has courage to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. The honorable member was willing to go on with the Government measures, so long as doing so chimed in with his own views as to railways that should be constructed. Wellington to Wairarapa, Nelson to Waimea, Picton to Blenheim, Auckland to Waikato—those were lines which the honorable member had no objection to see constructed at once; but he cannot support lines that will go through or connect the great centres of population in the Middle Island. What is the difference between the two policies. Simply this: one is practical, the other is visionary. What did the honorable member mean by publicly accusing us of pirating his ideas-by implying that the Ministry of which he was a member, if they had still remained in office, would have brought down a policy similar to that which is now before the House? Mr. RICHMOND.-I am sure I never said anything of the kind. I never accused the honorable gentleman of pirating my ideas or the ideas of any of my friends. Mr. VOGEL.-I may be mistaken; but I so understood the honorable member. "Floating in my head," I think was the phrase he used, as to some such policy as that which we have propounded-whatever "floating in my head" may mean. Now, at the last moment, when the Government have passed the measures relating to their colonizing policy, the honorable member wishes to deny to the Government the means of giving effect to that policy, and he is rash enough to suppose that he will get support in his attempt. It must, I am sure, have been very painful to the honorable member for Heathcote, to declare, as he has done, that he could not vote with his much-respected friend and late colleague, the honorable member for Grey and Bell. But how could the honorable member who a few days ago waited upon the Government and advised the immediate construction of certain railways in Canterbury-who aided in shaping the Immigration and Public Works Bill, giving some very valuable suggestions with that view-how could he support a proposal to deny to the Government the materials for giving effect to their policy, by shelving this Loan Bill? The honorable member for Grey and Bell, however, is happy in not being fettered by any scruples. It is sufficient for him, if he can think he has a possible chance of carrying such a resolution as that which he has proposed. It was probably suggested to him by some honorable members who would not propose such a motion themselves, but who would promise to vote for it; and straightway the honorable member comes forward as though he regarded himself as the leader of the opposition. The honorable member told us in the early part of the session, that he had advocated the construction of railways; and I ask him now, does he not know that it would be utterly useless to propose any scheme of railway construction which did not embrace lines from one end of the country to the other not to be constructed simultaneously, of course, but from time to time, as it might be found desirable to press on the works. The honorable member had no right to affront the very large number of members who have supported the Government throughout the session, by stating that he believed only four or five members really approved of our measures. The honorable member was invidious enough to indicate certain members as those who had so sup. ported our measures: thereby implying, as I understood him, that the other members who have voted in support of the Government policy have done so against their consciences, or from merely improper motives. In venturing to cast such a reflection, the honorable member has laid himself open to very severe attack. It is not for me to attempt to deal with the honorable member as he deserves to be dealt with; and, at this late hour, I will say no more on the subject than that I hope he will, on thinking over the matter, see in what grossly bad taste such a reflection was, and that he will apologize to the House, instead of compelling some other honorable members to explain to him how exceedingly misplaced such a reflection was. If the Government proposals had been for purposes of war, instead of for purposes [able members seem to me to regard a commenceof peaceful settlement, would the honorable member have objected to the amount of expenditure involved? Mr. RICHMOND.-Yes. Mr. VOGEL.-The honorable member has often talked to the Middle Island about the necessity for being economical, and about its relinquishing its revenues for years, with a view to settling the Maori question. Has he not, sometimes vaguely, and sometimes plainly, shadowed forth how desirable he thought it for the Colony to spend any amount of money to end the Maori troubles? Is it not really because we wish to spend money for peaceful purposes that he sees no merit in our proposals? This morning, I gave instructions to make the port of Waitara a port of entry; and while listening to the honorable member this evening, it struck me that about a decade had passed since transactions by which he and his had drawn down upon the Colony a curse from which we are but now arising. "Waitara!" The word ment of railways with most needless dread. Surely, it is recognizable by those honorable members, that "the great work of colonizing," which they cannot dread, because they must approve of it, is a convertible phrase for, "the construction of roads and the introduction of population." Roads we must have; and if modern science has so economized with respect to railways, that to have them is but little more costly at first than to have macadamized roads, while the former are much more lasting and more easily worked than the latter, why should we deny to the Colony the advantage which modern science enables us to secure? I do not admit that the Bill is open to any such fanciful construction as some honorable members put upon it, out of the House, when they try to lead the country to believe that the Government is going to plunge into enormous expenditure. I tell the honorable member for Porirua that the Bill is meant to provide a machinery for colonizing work has been indeed an ominous one to New Zealand. -for the construction of railways and the introAnd when I remembered that this Government duction of immigrants; that checks are provided, have to-day opened the port of Waitara for by which the number of immigrants to be intropeaceful purposes, and so remembered while duced, and the extent of railways to be undertaken, listening to the honorable member's objections can be from time to time regulated. The honorto a policy which has for its object the able member is quite right in saying that guaranopening of the whole of this Island by tees for railways will involve responsibility for peaceful means for prosperous settlement, interest; but it is equally a right statement that it did seem to me that the honorable member guarantees do not also involve responsibility for represented the very genius of enmity to New principal, as is the case when we borrow money. Zealand-an evil spirit which would deny to the Whatever may be the feeling on the part of some Colony all aid towards peaceful progress. I honorable members with regard to the Govern contend, Sir, that the money which we propose ment policy, there can be no doubt as to the to expend cannot, by any possibility, be wasted as feeling throughout the country. The Governthe money expended upon war purposes has been ment measures have been accepted as a great boon wasted. We may suppose that the railways we -as the means of opening to the country a future propose will cost about seven millions sterling-in which there is hopefulness. Those feelings not that we propose to borrow such an amount, but that we propose to take such steps as will lead to such an expenditure; and "profligate and gambling" as our policy may seem to be, in the opinion of the honorable member for Grey and Bell, I say it is not possible that that money can be wasted as though seven million sovereigns were obtained and tossed into the ocean. On the contrary, I am sure that those of us who, ten years hence, are able to look back upon the results of the policy which this House has now indorsed, will have no occasion to be ashamed of any comparison of those results with the results of all the expenditure during the last ten years. The honorable member for Manuherikia has asked whether we intend, as soon as our measures have been passed, to pledge the Colony to immigration to the full extent of the powers given by those measures. I can only refer the honorable member to what I have frequently stated, and to what appears in the Immigration and Public Works Bill. We mean to carry out the provisions of the Bill with judicious carefulness-certainly we do not intend to rush into any course equivalent to carrying out the provisions of the Bill in the shortest possible time and with the least regard to consequences. Let me add that some honor VOL. IX.-65. have not been confined to any particular classassuredly not, as some honorable members have been pleased to insinuate, to the merely needy class. Throughout the length and breadth of the country, and by all classes, feelings in favour of the Government policy have been displayed to an extent which has been most gratifying to us, especially when it is considered how very seldom it is that there is anything like unanimity upon public affairs in New Zealand. I wish there was time for reading to the House a lecture which was recently delivered in Otago by Mr. Justice Chapman. I suppose that the honorable member for Grey and Bell, even, will not insinuate that we are to suspect interested motives on the part of judges-that he will admit that judges are above suspicion as to evil motives which he would cast upon ordinary persons. Mr. RICHMOND.-I have not attributed evil motives to any one. I have given the honorable member himself credit for the best motives. Mr. VOGEL.-At all events, the honorable member has talked of our policy involving bribes, in the nature of Christmas trees, for all classes, and of our obtaining support by such bribes. Mr. Justice Chapman's lecture is, I am sorry to say, too long to read to the House; but perhaps I shall be allowed to read about a dozen lines. It is only a foot-note to the lecture, in which the learned judge, after showing the enormous advantages which Victoria has gained by railways, points out that the proposed railways in New Zealand will be even more beneficial. He says "I may here mention, very briefly, that under the railway system proposed to be established in New Zealand, the advantages of both saving and equalization of prices are likely to be greater in proportion to the capital employed, and the proportion of population directly reached, than in Victoria. When Victoria opened her 250 miles of railway, the population was but little over half a million. By the system of inexpensive lines, we should have at least four times the extent of railway for the same money, with about half the population at first, and perhaps about the same number when the lines are completed. Thus our railways will penetrate to a greater distance, and embrace and influence a much larger extent of country-in other words, the advantage will be brought within the reach of a larger proportion of the people. It is quite impossible to calculate this, but it must be obvious." The whole case for our measures may be summed up in a few words. Do we or do we not believe in the resources of New Zealand? If not, it is not wise that we should spend money in trying to develop the country. But if we do believe in the resources of New Zealand, why should we not march with the time, and try to do rapidly that which would otherwise take a very long while to effect? Why should we not do for the country, in ten years, that which, if the work be not specially and energetically undertaken, will probably not be done in less than 100 years? The Government believe that there are in this country vast and valuable forests, great and varied mineral wealth, teeming fisheries, pastoral lands, and enormous agricultural capabilities. Why should we not say to the overburdened population of the old country, "Here is a land rich in all natural resources. willing to develop it to the largest extent, if you will come and make it your home"? That, Sir, is the policy of the present Government. We are Question put, "That the word 'now part of the question," upon which a division called for, with the following result :- Ayes Noes Majority for Mr. Baigent, Mr. Barff, 35 6 ... ... Mr. McGillivray, Mr. McIndoe, 29 stand was |