:

thought, from the experience they had had in the Province of Auckland, since the Common Schools Act was brought into operation, that it was necessary that the House should pass an Act compelling the settlers to tax themselves for school purposes-to levy a school rate. The Act of the Provincial Legislature was practically inoperative for rating purposes. The leading principles of the Auckland Common Schools Act were these that a school should be established in a district, and that it should be maintained partly by school fees, partly by local rates or contributions, and partly by contributions from the provincial revenue. At the time the Bill was being drafted he thought it was very likely, from his own knowledge of the settlers of this country, who depend upon the Government for almost everything they require in the shape of improvements, that it would be necessary to put a more elastic clause into the Bill. A clause was inserted in the Bill, therefore, which enabled the central board of education to assist the school districts without enforcing the clause as to rating; and the result had been that nearly all the school districts proclaimed had accepted the Bill so far, that they depended entirely upon the school fees and the aid given from the votes of the Provincial Council. They absolutely declined to rate themselves, and it was not possible for the provincial authorities to enforce the rating clause against the sentiments and feelings of the population. Now, he thought the House should step in and make it compulsory upon the settlers, in every place where a school district was proclaimed, to levy a rate to maintain schools in a manner satisfactory to the inspector of schools appointed by the Government. With regard to primary education, he believed they should look more to the American system than to the English system. He held in his hand a copy of a special report on popular education in Europe and the United States, by the Hon. Mr. Ryerson, which was presented to the Provincial Council of Ontario in 1868. He had read the report of the Royal Commission on Primary Schools, and he believed that Mr. Ryerson's report was the most complete and exhaustive paper on the subject of public instruction he had ever seen, or which was in print. He thought the Government would do well to obtain, during the recess, a copy of that report from the Government of Ontario, and model a Bill upon the suggestions contained therein. He had intended to read an extract or two from the report which occurred to his mind when the honorable member for Grey and Bell was speaking, because he thought they had a direct bearing upon the remarks of the Premier, who appeared to think that the work of education should be left to local bodies entirely, without the interference of the Supreme Legislature. In Mr. Ryerson's remarks on the American systems of public instruction, he found the following

a good education, and the obligations of the State to provide for it. This is an article in the constitution of several of the States, and is recognized by a liberal provision in setting apart the proceeds of the sales of one-sixth or seventh of their public lands to form a school fund for universal education. This has been followed up by school laws, framed in the same spirit, and with the same design; very large sums of money have been raised and expended, and a network of schools has been spread over the land."

He thought the New Zealand Legislature should follow the example which had been set in this respect by the States Governments; but even in America it was admitted that the system of state education, or rather of divers systems, had tended more than any other to produce a feeling of local jealousy, which had led to the recent struggles in America. If it were not that he might weary the House, he would like to read a portion of the concluding remarks of the Hon. Mr. Ryerson on this subject, which he believed had a direct bearing on the question before the House, as showing the necessity for establishing a national or colonial system of education, and not a merely local or provincial system of education. The Hon. Mr. Ryerson says:

"In the foregoing pages I have made no reference to the other Provinces of our Canadian Confederation. In the application of my epitomes of facts and systems, I have confined myself to Ontario, as no national system of education seems to have been contemplated by the Confederation Act, and as each Province is an independent State in itself in respect to education, without educational identity or unity with any other Province. In this respect we have imitated, rather than have been warned by, the example of other ancient and modern confederations. An able American writer remarks:- So long as the education of our children is conducted under the laws of the separate States, without any homogeneousness in the methods adopted for their sustenance and management, we shall lack a most important auxiliary to a true nationality. Each of the several States being left to adopt its own scheme, and to determine what shall be the method and measure of education imparted at public expense to all classes of children within its bounds, it is quite impossible to secure that uniformity of method, or thoroughness of administration, or strictness of responsibility, which a well-managed national bureau might achieve. The whole work is fragmentary and unmethodical. Each State has a different standard, grade, or measure of school culture. It must have its own method of preparing and employing teachers, of paying school expenses, supplying books, and superintending the movements of the machinery; but even when the reports of any two States happen to embrace the same items in form, they are made upon different bases, and no comparative deductions can be made from them. This will be obvious if we contrast any of our State reports with the reports of the Privy Council on Education in England, or of other European countries, in which we have a single connected view of

the working of the whole machinery, and all the connections and results, as if it were the report of a parish or district school.' That distinguished American statesman the Hon. Horace Binney-remarks thus on the same subject, in a published private letter to a friend: The want has been incident to all Confederated States in all ages of the world. No mere league or treaty of alliance or federal compact has been able to give the whole people concerned a common country. Our Union has been more intimate than that of any other States, and yet I fear I must say, it has as completely failed in this respect, as it has in other countries in ancient or in comparatively modern times. We are born in the States-the State laws, bearing upon our most intimate personal relations, are over us, and State officers are the agents for their enforcement. It requires a higher view and more extended observation than the young take, or than the course of education takes, to see and feel the bearings of the union upon ourselves personally. I should almost despair of ever finding an effectual corrective if our domestic institutions were to remain permanently in the same condition, in all respects as they have been. Thus far, beyond doubt,

the differences in certain State institutions have caused the greater part of our troubles, and finally brought about the greatest. Certainly one of the right ways is to accustom children and young people, from early life, to have the whole country and nation before them, and to keep its symbol in their hearts by every means which can associate it with our virtue, our honour, and our domestic and public safety.'

If they substituted provinces for states, these remarks would be singularly applicable to New Zealand. He understood the object which the honorable member for Grey and Bell had in view was to create something like a national feeling on the subject of education. He trusted the honorable member for Clutha would withdraw his motion, and that the Government would, during the recess, take this great question into consideration, and devise a scheme of national education which would mould the youth of the Provinces to cherish the idea of a common and a great and united country.

Mr. STAFFORD.-Sir, I confess that I share in the disappointment which has been expressed by the honorable member for Ashley at the attitude which the Government have taken upon this question, not only so far as it might be inferred from the speech of the Premier, but also on previous occasions during the present session, when the question of providing education for the people of New Zealand has, in some shape or other, been brought before the attention of the House. I have been most reluctantly driven to the conclusion, not only that the Government has no heart in advocating or assisting in the promotion of any particular scheme or suggestion which has been submitted to the Legislature, having for its object that of providing that the people of New Zealand shall have a fair education, but that the Government

appears to imagine that it is something outside the scope of its functions to consider whether it shall rule a fairly educated people or a people in a state of semi-barbarism. The honorable gentleman at the head of the Government, on the occasion of his recent visit to Dunedin, stated, at a public meeting, that he represented in some sort the whole of New Zealand; but I must take leave to say that he does not represent the whole of New Zealand if he assumes that it is the duty of any Govern. ment to be absolutely indifferent to the question of whether there shall be brought up amongst us sections of the community fairly educated or absolutely ignorant; and that the country will very soon wake up to the fact that it must unmistakably indicate the opinion that, whoever shall occupy the Government benches, it does come within the scope of their functions to consider how they should best promote this very great question of the primary education of the people. I confess I cannot-notwithstanding the explanation made by the honorable member for Clutha, and what has been stated by the honorable gentleman at the head of the Government, who seconded the amendment-understand where the great distinction lies between the amendment and the motion of my honorable friend the member for Grey and Bell, except in so far as it may be inferred, and as has been inferred by the honorable member for Newton, that it is an attempt made, in a narrow-minded spirit, to retard and obstruct, so far as it is possible to do so, anything like a universal feeling throughout New Zealand on the subject. On reading the two resolutions, I find they both indicate that a Bill on the subject should be introduced. In that respect the honorable gentleman at the head of the Government has, by seconding the amendment, gone much further than we might infer he would wish to go from the observations which he made when speaking on the question; for if those observations proved anything, they proved that it was almost impossible, and certainly not desirable, to move in the question at all. As the honorable member for Ashley has correctly stated, there was any quantity of cold water thrown upon the idea of moving in any direction on this question. To the extent I have mentioned, the Government has pledged itself that it is desirable a Bill should be introduced; and that being the main question, in my opinion, it will of course fall upon the Legislature to determine in what shape the Bill shall ultimately pass. We shall have an opportunity of carefully considering it next session, when such a Bill is before the Legislature; and if it should seem good to the Legislature to do so, the Bill can very easily be shaped in the direction of the provisions recommended by the honorable member for Grey and Bell. The honorable gentleman at the head of the Government has certainly disappointed me in the cold-water attitude which he took upon this question, and which the Government has also taken on a previous question before the House-the Borough Schools Act and the lukewarmness shown in regard to the question of the New Zealand University.

Mr. FOX.-The honorable gentleman will pardon me for correcting a mistake which he has just fallen into. The Government have supported the New Zealand University with the greatest possible earnestness and zeal, and I was Chairman of the Committee who recommended the introduction of the Bill on the subject.

Mr. STAFFORD.-I beg the honorable gentleman's pardon. I did not wish to misrepresent him, and I have been misinformed on the matter. I was surprised at one statement which the honorable gentleman made, to the effect that the Established Church in New Zealand had greatly obstructed the progress of education.

Mr. FOX.-No; I spoke of the old country, and not of New Zealand.

Mr. STAFFORD.-I was not aware of what the honorable gentleman meant by Established Church, the only one having the semblance to that name being what was called at home the Free | Church of Scotland, but which might be called the Established Church of Otago. That is the only Church that would at all come within the shadow of the name of being established in this country, because it has large endowments for its maintenance within the original settlement. I may say that, feeling as I do very strongly on this subject, I think it would be very improper that any system of education should be interfered with or dominated by any denomination whatever. I think the various denominations have worked together cheerfully and without jealousy-certainly without obstructing each other or obstructing the state; they have done what seemed to them to be their duty in the matter of educating the people; and very considerable credit is due to those denominations for the exertions they have made in their several spheres in promoting the work of education. There was also a statement made by the honorable member for Clutha which also excited my surprise, and that was that Otago was the only Province in the Colony which had attempted, or, at all events, succeeded, in establishing a national system of education. He did not explain to the House what he meant by that term, "national system of education," and he left it to be inferred that opening the doors of schools to children of all creeds, where they could sit side by side and receive education side by side, was his interpretation of the term. If that is the interpretation to be put on a national system of education, I say that the same system has for a long time existed all over the Colony. I am not aware of any public schools where the children of all denominations cannot be instructed side by side, and which are not open to children of all denominations if their parents are desirous of their being educated therein. I say, therefore, that it was a rather unfair attempt on the part of the honorable member for Clutha to show that Otago had done something noble and magnanimous, which the narrowminded people of the rest of the Colony had been unable to arrive at. On behalf of the other parts of the Colony I repudiate that interpretation, if that is the one sought to be given by the honorable member for Clutha, in attempting to

VOL. IX.-8.

assume for Otago the possession of the only system of national education in the Colony. If such an assumption can be made at all by any part of the Colony, I say, without any fear of challenge, that it can be made by Nelson, which first established a system of education open to children of all donominations, free to children of all creeds, taking no more from one than from another, and throwing the school doors open to every child whose parents chose to take advantage of the system, without the payment of sixpence in the shape of fees for instruction. If that assumption can be made, as far, at all events, as originating the idea, it can be made by Nelson; but I do not say that Nelson has done more than other parts of the Colony in opening the doors of its schools to all, without distinction of creed. Again, I am not prepared to admit that, because there is no land fund in the North Island, therefore the people are to be content to let their children be uneducated; nor has it been shown that the existence of a land fund is necessary to maintain schools. Nelson has of late years only had land fund sufficient to defray the expenses of the land department. It is true that, for some years past, she has derived a fund from gold duties, called, by a species of fiction, territorial revenue, but the incomings from that source have mainly been spent, in the district from which they have been derived, for other governmental purposes, and have not been available for education. The public schools in that Province are maintained from other sources than the land fund, although a percentage of that fund, to the extent, I believe, of one-twentieth, has been devoted for the purpose of education; but that has been a very insignificant amount of late years, and, although a nominal contribution, is not practically one. I may say, also, that if we look at the statistics we shall find that the small Province of Hawke's Bay, which for many years has not had anything like a land revenue, has done as much in the way of opening up to the people of the Province the means of elementary education, as the largest and wealthiest Province in the Colony, having the largest and most continuous land revenue. That, in itself, is a proof that there is no special connection between the possession of land revenue and the existence of a good system of education, and I would ask those who contend that there is, what is to become of this country when the land fund is totally gone? The land revenue is looked upon by some persons as an inexhaustible fund, but we know that every year and every month and every day is exhausting that fund, and, I ask, are we to be told that when it is gone there will remain no recognized means for imparting elementary education to the children of the Colony? I hope there is not a member of this Legislature who will admit the truth of such an idea; and I assert that, while the Legislature is taking steps to establish a New Zealand University, it is absolutely neces sary that we should contemporaneously recognize that it is our imperative duty to secure the means of elementary education for all. Sir, at this hour of the evening I shall not detain the House

much longer, and will only say that I shall give my hearty support to the motion brought forward by the honorable member for Grey and Bell. So far from thinking with the honorable member for Clutha, that his speech was dictated by a cacoethes loquendi, I say that great credit is due to any honorable member who, like the honorable member for Grey and Bell, will get up and support his motion by arguments, and by giving to the House the experience of other and older countries upon the question-great credit is due to him, and not an attempt at a sneer, such as was made by the honorable member for Clutha. The speech of the honorable member for Grey and Bell was not exhaustive, for he might have spoken for days upon this large question, and given infinitely more numerous illustrations, and adduced much more lengthy arguments, without introducing one word of surplusage. hope the honorable member will persevere in this and in analogous questions, and give to them that amount of attention and earnestness which characterizes him, so as to place them before the people in such a way that an intelligent opinion can be formed upon them. I shall have very great pleasure in supporting the motion of the honorable member for Grey

and Bell.

Mr. RICHMOND.-Sir, I shall not occupy the time of the House long in reply. My object has been attained, to a very great extent, in having in a general way brought the subject before the House on the present occasion. When I put on the notice paper the long list of heads of the measure which I sought to indicate as desirable, I had, of course, no idea that the House would pledge itself to the particular views which I myself entertained. I wished, however, to put the proposals somewhat in detail before the country, as the basis for that discussion which the subject must receive out of doors before anything practical can be adopted. With respect to the complaint of the honorable member for Clutha, as to the length of my speech, I can assure the honorable member that, with a desire not to weary the House, I omitted many things which I had prepared as illustrations of the subject, and did not follow up a great many of the points touched upon in the heads which were printed in the supplementary order paper. At the same time, I am quite conscious that I do not deserve the praise bestowed upon my action by the honorable member for Timaru. I quite concur with the honorable member for Ashley, that there is no great objection to the amendment of the honorable member for Clutha, and it is only because it comes in a sort of semihostile spirit that I object to it all. It does appear to me that the honorable member for Newton has correctly characterized it when he said that it showed the cloven foot8 little narrow-minded desire to stop any action which may tend to establish some one point in which we may rejoice in our common nationality, and which may tend to the fusion of the people-not the Provinces-into one nation. I hope I have clearly explained that I have no desire whatever to interfere with any Province which is doing its work in the cause of education.

|

I say again, that no person, rising at the eleventh hour to take action in this matter, is likely to improve upon that which has been done by those who have been long in the field, but that is no reason why we should have any part of the country neglected or ill-treated. I should like to see my resolution carried, not for the purpose of compelling the Government to take up the particular heads which I have placed before the House, but because I wish the House to record the opinion that the education of the children of the Colony is a national duty and trust, and that we ought not to allow our fancy for any particular form of government to interfere to prevent us from promptly co-operating in that duty. Amendment negatived, and motion agreed to.

NELSON CROWN LANDS LEASING

BILL.

On the motion of Mr. CURTIS, this Bill was ordered to be committed next sitting day.

CASE OF JOHN RUNCIMAN. On the motion of Mr. CREIGHTON, the House resolved itself into Committee to consider of an address to His Excellency the Governor, praying him to place on the estimates such sum as may give effect to the recommendation of the Committee to whom was referred the petition of John Runciman.

IN COMMITTEE.

Mr. CREIGHTON moved, That a respectful address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, praying him to place upon the estimates a sum of £279 10s., in order to give effect to the report of the Select Committee on the case of John Runciman.

Mr. CRACROFT WILSON, C.B., thought it his duty to inform the Committee of the real state of this case. He and some other members of the Public Petitions Committee disagreed with the report of the present Committee, and he thought that the Committee of the session of 1866 had given the House sufficient reasons for their having done so. The honorable member who had just moved this resolution had given no reason why this address should be presented to His Excellency, and had, therefore, placed him (Mr. Wilson) in a rather difficult position in not having anything to reply to, but he would give a short statement of the case, which would enable the Committee to judge of the matter. The petitioner in this case petitioned the House, in 1866, in order to obtain compensation for losses he sustained in the matter of the purchase of 294 sheep in 1864. The report of the Public Petitions Committee of that year, after reviewing the circumstances of the case, concluded thus:

"The Committee direct me to report that they are of opinion that the petitioner, having by his own act, placed himself in a false position, his prayer should not receive the favourable consideration of the Government."

In opposition to the decision of the Committee in 1866, the Committee in the present year reported to this effect:

"The petitioner has again petitioned the House,

and the present Committee has, by a majority of six to two-the Chairman, of course, not voting, on the ground that Colonel Meade Hamilton, then commanding at Ngaruawahia, was a party to the deed referring the case to arbitration-reversed the decision arrived at in 1866, and has directed me to report that, in their opinion, the Colony should pay the petitioner the sum of £300, minus £21 103., the sum originally paid by the petitioner to the Natives of Tamahere, and which sum was repaid to the petitioner at the time that the sheep were made over to the meat contractor, Johnson, for the use of the troops then engaged in active operations against the enemy."

vance.

The merits of the case, so far as he could recollect them, were these: A person named Johnson was employed as meat contractor for the troops, Colonel Meade Hamilton was then in command at Ngaruawahia, and Runciman went up there and asked for a pass, to enable him to go on and deal with the Natives for some sheep. Colonel Hamilton told him there was no objection to his having a pass to go as far as the town of Hamilton, but no further; and, moreover, no permission was given to him to have anything to say to the Natives with regard to the purchase of sheep until Johnson had been communicated with. Johnson was telegraphed to, and he refused to give his consent to Runciman dealing for these sheep. The assertion was that Runciman went to Hamilton, and, not content with that, went on to Tamahere, and offered 2s. a head more for the lambs than Johnson had offered, and bought the sheep, paying the Natives £21 10s. as an adHe then brought them down the river in two boats, towed by a steamer, and, on arriving at Ngaruawahia, was stopped and the sheep landed, Colonel Hamilton giving a cheque for £21 10s. to Runciman, the sum advanced by him to the Natives, and the sheep being handed over to the contractor, Johnson, and used by the troops. Subsequently, Colonel Hamilton signed a deed submitting the case to arbitration, and the two arbitrators having failed to settle it, it was referred to a referee, who awarded damages to the extent of £300 to Runciman. An attempt to make the award a rule of Court was made, and Runciman took the case into the Supreme Court for that purpose; but, on acccount of some irregularity, the application was rejected. A suit for damages was then instituted; but an Indemnity Act was passed that year, by which proceedings in the Supreme Court were stopped. Runciman now said that he was entitled to compensation to the amount of the award, in consequence of Colonel Hamilton having agreed to go to arbitration. There was no doubt about that point, but the question was, whether a man, signing a deed of arbitration and finding himself compelled to pay damages, which he knew at the same time to be unjust, was not justified in taking advantage of an irregularity and an Indemnity Act, and BO save the payment of the damages. The irregularity in writing out the award was the reason why the Court would not make it a rule of Court-would,

The moral

not, in fact, allow judgment to issue. part of the question hinged upon this, that the arbitrators awarded £300 damages as the prospective profit of Runciman upon the purchase of the 294 sheep, without deducting the cost price of the sheep, which the Government, not Runciman, had paid; but the Committee in 1866 thought, and he (Mr. Wilson) still thought, it was not justifiable to give such a sum when war operations were being carried on in that part of the country where the petitioner went to, and they recommended that he should not receive anything. This was a concise history of the case as he gathered it from the papers on the subject, but if there was anything which he had omitted he would be glad to explain it.

Mr. GILLIES would support the motion of the honorable member for Newton, as he happened to know a great deal about this transaction. He might say that the statement made by the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee was correct as a one-sided statement-it was correct according to Colonel Hamilton's statement-but having had access to the documents, and to the evidence taken by the arbitrators, and having had occasion to advise Colonel Hamilton, when the award was set aside, that the only way for him to get out of paying the money was to claim exemption under the Indemnity Act, he (Mr. Gillies) was perfectly satisfied of the justness of Mr. Runciman's claim, and that the judgment of the Supreme Court would have been given in his favour but for that Indemnity Act. There was no doubt that, in justice, Mr. Runciman was entitled to recompense to the extent of £300, which only represented the profit he might have made On the sheep-not even what the contractor would have received for them from the military authorities. An arbitration was held, and an award was made, which, though it happened to be bad in law, must be accepted by every honest man as good in justice. It was upset on a point of law, and not on the question of the justice of the award, and therefore he would strongly support the motion.

Resolution agreed to, reported to the House, and the report ordered to be considered next sitting day.

UNIVERSITY BILL.

On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, for the purpose of going into Committee on this Bill,

Mr. ROLLESTON.-Before you leave the chair, Sir, I presume it is competent for me to say a few words on this subject. The amendments which I have put upon the order paper are of that character, with regard to this Bill, as to require some general explanation on my part of their purport before the House goes into Committee. I do not look upon these amendments as doing away with the necessity for the Bill, but as so far changing its charac ter as to amount to a remodelling of it. I shall make no apology to the House for detaining it, even at this late period of the session, upon a question which has already