duced in the usual course; but some observations that fell from the honorable gentleman yesterday led him (Mr. Hall) to believe that this practice was to be discontinued, and the usual information to be withheld from the public. He hoped that the honorable gentleman would be able to give some satisfactory explanation of the change which appeared to be intended.

Mr. VÖGEL said the report had not been prepared on account of the amount of work which the head of the customs department had had since the marine department had been taken over by him. It would be remembered that the country had been deprived of the services of the late marine engineer through that officer's death in December last. It was not until late in the year that the marine department was handed over to the customs, and there was, consequently, a large arrear of work thrown upon the head of the customs, who then became the head of the marine department. A very large amount of work outstanding had to be disposed of, not the least of which was the putting up of three new lighthouses, which had been successfully accomplished. It was quite impossible to prepare a report in time to lay it before the House during the present session; but a full report of the working of the department, since it had been transferred to the customs, would be prepared as early as possible, and it would either be circulated during the recess, or laid upon the table when the House met next session. He need not say that the death of Mr. Balfour had caused a disturbing influence in the work of the department. It was some time before the Government knew what steps to take, and they might possibly find that the present arrangements did not answer, the object of the Government being if possible to avoid the creation of a special marine department. If it was found that professional assistance was necessary, it would be better to procure it for the department than to place a professional gentleman at the head of the department.

PRIVILEGE.

Mr. FOX wished, as Chairman of the Privilege Committee, to inform the House that the Committee had met again that morning, expecting that they would have had the Hon. Mr. Sewell and the Clerk of the Legislative Council present, who had been requested, by message of that House on the previous day, to attend before the Committee. The Committee met at eleven o'clock, and sat until twelve, at which hour no intimation whatever had reached them from the Legislative Council. The Committee adjourned until next day. He had, therefore, under those circumstances, to move that an extension of time be granted to the Committee for bringing up the report. He was in hopes that the Legislative Council would furnish the House with some information as to the course they intended to pursue in the matter.

That the Legislative Council have taken into consideration the Messages 56 and 57, from the House of Representatives, which had been referred to a Select Committee, who had agreed to the following resolution relating thereto, which was transmitted to the House of Representatives for their consideration:

"As the Messages Nos. 56 and 57, from the House of Representatives, refer to a Bill in the possession of the Council, and as it is a high breach of privilege for either branch of the Legislature to interfere, in any other than the regular and constitutional manner, in the proceedings of the other branch, the Council seeks to be informed upon the points upon which it is desired to examine the Hon. Mr. Sewell and the Clerk of the House, before it makes a final reply to the messages referred to."

Mr. FOX moved, That a message be forwarded to the Legislative Council, informing it that the matter respecting which the House of Representatives desires information from the Hon. Mr. Sewell and the Clerk of the Council, relates to a certain Bill passed by this House, intituled the Traquair and Stuart Hundreds Bill, which was passed in this House and forwarded to the Legislative Council on the 31st of August last. That members of this House have seen a certain document, professing to be such Bill as passed by this House, and having thereon the name of Mr. Macandrew as the promoter thereof, but which Bill was altogether different from the Bill so passed by this House. That a copy of the said fictitious Bill was shown to a member of this House by a member of the Legislative Council. That this House is apprehensive that there must have been some irregularity in the transmission of this said Bill to the Legislative Council, and are desirous of investigating the facts of the case, for which purpose they wish to examine the Hon. Mr. Sewell and the Clerk of the Council. The Select Committee of this House will sit to-morrow at 11 a.m., when it is hoped that the above-named gentlemen will be allowed to attend.

Mr. ROLLESTON thought the proper course would be to appoint a Committee to examine the journals of the Legislative Council. He believed that to be the course adopted in England. The House had nothing officially before it with regard to the Bill. From what he could gather, a mistake had been made which could scarcely be considered as a breach of privilege.

Mr. FOX said the question had already been referred to a Committee which was carrying on its investigation, and that Bill was one of the matters upon which the Committee thought it necessary to examine the gentlemen alluded to. Motion agreed to.

COUNTY OF WESTLAND BOUNDARIES BILL.

Mr. VOGEL said that having yesterday moved that this Bill be discharged, it was necessary that he should give some explanation of the circumstances which induced him to take that course. A charge had been made against the Government of a breach of faith in the matter, and a course

of obstruction had been adopted, in reference to which honorable members on all sides of the House had, he believed, been disgusted-perhaps that was too strong a term, but it was one which expressed the feelings of honorable members on the occasion referred to. He would relate, as far as he could, the circumstances which attended the introduction of this Bill. On or about the 20th July, the honorable member for Westland Boroughs (Mr. W. H. Harrison) and the honorable member for Westland North (Mr. Kynnersley) did him the honor to wait upon him, as a deputation, in connection with a change in the constitution of the districts between the Grey and Teremakau Rivers. He understood that the honorable members' recollection did not tally with his (Mr. Vogel) as to what took place at the interview, but he adhered to what he had already stated with reference to it. The honorable member for Westland North said that he was unable to make the recommendation that a part of the County of Westland should be transferred to the Province of Nelson-that it was impossible for him to make such a recommendation-and he (Mr. Vogel) had also a recollection that the honorable member said if the Grey district was joined to Nelson, it would only be for the purpose of afterwards stealing a large slice of Nelson. He told the honorable member that it was impossible for the Government to accept any proposition of the kind, and that they could not be a party to establishing an organization for the purpose of disturbing the established boundaries of the territorial divisions of the Colony. It was a proposition which none but very inexperienced member of the House could have made. The recommendation of the honorable member for Westland Boroughs was, that the boundary of the Province of Nelson should be transferred to the Teremakau River. The honorable member said he would address a letter to him (Mr. Vogel), embodying in writing his representations, and he (Mr. Vogel) should refer to that letter in corroboration of his recollection of what took place at the interview. The honorable member for Westland North was not a party to that recommendation. A letter was afterwards addressed to him by the honorable member for Westland Boroughs. He asked the honorable member in common fairness to say whether his account of the interview was not a correct one?

a

Mr. W. H. HARRISON thought it was hardly a fair position to place him in.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable member is not bound to answer if he does not wish to do so. Mr. W. H. HARRISON said the statement of the honorable gentleman was in the main correct. He thought that the honorable member for Westland North did say, that if the district were to be attached to the Province of Nelson, there would be an agitation for separation from that Province next year.

Mr. VOGEL said the honorable member did not see the point. The honorable member for Westland North accused him (Mr. Vogel) of a breach of faith. The only interview he had with

the honorable member on the subject was on the occasion now spoken of. If the honorable member did not make the recommendation, as he (Mr.Vogel) had asserted, he did not see how there could be a breach of faith in the matter, seeing that the honorable member had become a convert to the proposal to hand over the district to the Province of Nelson. Then he received a letter from the honorable member for Westland Boroughs, addressed to him as "Dear Sir." He spoke to the honorable member about his having addressed it in that manner, and asked if it was a public letter, to which the honorable member replied affirmatively, and told him he might so regard it. The general object of the letter was to support the prayer of the petition; and it also represented that the Chairman of the County Council of Westland was a very unfit person for the office he held.

Mr. W. H. HARRISON.-That is not what I have stated that he is an unfit person to hold the office of Chairman.

Mr. VOGEL.-Am I at liberty to read tho letter?

Mr. W. H. HARRISON.-The honorable member may read that part of the statementhe may read the whole if he thinks fit.

Mr. VOGEL.-A portion of the letter is rather intemperate.

Mr. W. H. HARRISON.-The honorable member is at liberty to treat it as an official letter. I ask the honorable member that he would read the whole letter.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable member for Westland Boroughs will have an opportunity of replying. I think it would be better if the honorable member would speak more generally on the subject, and not speak to other honorable members, which causes them to make interpolations. Mr. VOGEL.-Every honorable member is interested in a charge of breach of faith.

The SPEAKER.-I think the matter may be debated without provoking answers and rejoinders on the part of honorable members. I wish to see the debate conducted in the usual manner.

The

Mr. VOGEL said he should be sorry if he had conducted the debate in an irregular manner; but it was desirable that they should clear up this matter, so that there should be no contradiction afterwards. If Mr. Speaker would not object, he should like to show this part of the letter to the honorable member before reading it. [The honorable gentleman showed the letter to the honorable member for Westland Boroughs, and afterwards read it to the House.] honorable member made a report to the Government, that in consequence of the agitation existing in the Grey district for annexation to Nelson, the Chairman of the County and the Council were disposed to make away, with a view of retaliation or something of that kind, with a large portion of the coal reserve in the neighbourhood of the Grey River. Inquiries were made, and it appeared that an application had been sent in, and been entertained more or less favourably by the Council, but it had been abandoned. A day or two afterwards, the

honorable member made still stronger representations that the Chairman of the County was disposed to use improperly his delegated power under the Gold Fields Act, in the way of granting what were called protections or rights for constructing roads and bridges. Those representations were so strong that he (Mr. Vogel) took the extraordinary course of telegraphing to the Chairman of the County Council to the effect, that unless he sent up an assurance by telegram, immediately, that he would not exercise his delegated powers in any but the ordinary manner, they would be at once withdrawn. He was bound to say that, as far as he had been able to ascertain since, the representations were altogether a mistake; that the charge against the Chairman was one which circumstances did not warrant; and he felt very much regret that he had been led to take such an extraordinary course. The Chairman came to Wellington, and he (Mr. Vogel) expected to meet a person brutally ignorant, and sanguinary in style and manner; but he felt bound to confess, from the slight acquaintance he had with that gentleman, that he had quite as much ability as members of Provincial Councils were generally possessed of, and as members of this House or the other House ordinarily possessed-in fact, that he was a colonist of average ability. The Chairman, in answer to the telegram, sent back at once a message to the effect that the Government was entirely misinformed in supposing he had any idea of using his delegated powers in any unusual manner. In consequence of the strong representations of the honorable member, he (Mr. Vogel) told him that the Government were prepared to bring in a Bill to alter the boundaries of the County of Westland, and he believed the Bill had been printed and circulated; but he denied altogether that, in telling the honorable member that such was the intention of the Government, he entered into any contract whatever. The honorable member had not told him that he himself intended to bring in a Bill, and the fact was that he took independent action in the matter, because he moved for a Select Committee without consulting him (Mr. Vogel) at all on the subject, thus showing that he was not acting with him. If the honorable member had had any assurance with which he was sufficiently content, he would not have moved for a Select Committee. Subsequently, the honorable member did him the favour to address him a letter suggesting the name of the gentleman who should be appointed the nominated Chairman of the County Council of Westland. It was entirely without the knowledge of the gentleman that the recommendation was made, so that he (Mr. Vogel) did not think the name should be stated. At the same time, he did not like the idea of honorable members moving in matters in the way the honorable member moved in this, and speaking of the County of Westland in a manner certainly not very respectful, especially considering that at the last election the honorable member was himself a candidate for the chairmanship, that the Council elected another gentleman, and

| that the honorable member had taken part in the proceedings of the Council very recently. The recommendations of the honorable member, backed by a desire to take his district out of the County, and his suggesting a gentleman whom the Government were to appoint as the nominated Chairman of that portion of the County which he was going to leave, were circumstances which produced in his (Mr. Vogel) mind the impression that the honorable member looked upon the whole of the present County as a district created by Providence for him to reign over. Before going on with the Bill, he (Mr. Vogel) consulted with the Superintendent of Nelson. It seemed to him that they were in this position: there was an application from a small portion of the County of Westland to be taken out of that County, which would leave the rest of the County in a state so impoverished, as to necessitate its coming up to the House as a suitor for a special consideration. The other portions of the County did not desire to see the Grey district taken out; and it struck him that if the Nelson Province did not desire to receive the Grey district, they would be left in the position that merely a small portion of the County desired to benefit its condition. The House had uniformly set itself against proceedings of that kind. It was not unusual for certain territorial divisions of the country to fall into difficulties, and to recognize the adage about rats deserting the sinking ship. Supposing the honorable member for Timaru and the honorable member for Gladstone came down to the House, and said, "We insist upon being taken out of Canterbury, and added to Otago," but Otago said, "We will have none of you," while Canterbury said, "We do not want to part with you;" and supposing those gentlemen said, “If you don't take us from Canterbury, look out, we will seize your court-house, and perhaps do worse than that,"-which was a threat used in the House on the previous day. He thought that would be looked upon as rather an extraordinary line of conduct to be taken. Then they had very strong representations from the County of Westland against the union. The honorable member for Westland South, and an honorable member in another place, came from that district, and were both averse to the Grey district being taken out of the County. As far as he was aware, the honorable member for Westland North desired only to see another County formed by taking a part of Nelson and a part of the County of Westland. Well, it remained to be ascertained what were the views of the Province of Nelson. He found the Superintendent of Nelson, with his usual astuteness, prepared to "do the thing at a price." He said he would take the district with £50,000 of liabilities, but he could not consent to any arbitration whatever. After a great deal of diffi culty, he got the honorable member to advance by £10,000, and to say that he would accept the district with £60,000 liabilities, which arrangement he thought would meet the views of the County of Westland. That £60,000 was not only to cover the share of the debt of the County of

Westland, but also the share of the annual liability for the maintenance of the Christchurch road. The honorable member was very reluctant to accept the price at £60,000, but he gave him (Mr. Vogel) to understand that he would rather accept it than see the Bill thrown out. But his (Mr. Vogel) attention was subsequently drawn to the report of a commissioner despatched by the Government of Nelson to investigate the subject, and he found that that commissioner had come to the conclusion that £60,000 was the lowest amount of the debt of the County of Westland which the Province of Nelson should bear, and that that was exclusive of the liability which the new Province should bear on account of the Christchurch road. When he (Mr. Vogel) saw that, and when he also saw that the commissioner had a very high opinion of the new district, what could he think? The commissioner reported as follows:

"1st. That the revenue of the district north of the Teremakau is likely to be permanent, and has even increased largely of late.

"2nd. That the necessary expenditure, including the heavy liabilities on account of interest and the maintenance of the road to Christchurch, is still so far within the actual yearly income that a balance of several thousand pounds is available annually for roads, bridges, and other public works, leaving a considerable margin to meet provincial charges and extraordinary contingencies.

"3rd. That the amalgamation of the various departments with those of Nelson would add largely to the efficiency of the Government on both sides of the Grey.

"4th. That a considerable money saving would be effected thereby.

"5th. That the district in question would well repay a moderate outlay on roads and bridges.

6th. That there are but slight grounds for supposing that the Province of Nelson is injured to any appreciable extent by the present system of dividing the gold duty with the County of Westland."

Under those circumstances, were they to leave the Province of Westland in a state of debt, with some £14,000 overdraft-in a state in which it declared it would be unable to meet its annual liabilities, and would be compelled to come to the House for assistance-were they to take away from Westland a district which, according to the report of the commissioner sent from Nelson, would not only be able to pay some £60,000 as its share of the County of Westland debt, but also to pay a contribution to the Christchurch road, be able to spend several thousand pounds on roads and bridges, and have a margin to contribute to the provincial charges? Were they to take away all that, and leave the County of Westland in a more than impoverished condition? The Government were, then, not in possession of information sufficient to enable them to come down to the House and make any representation on the subject. He told the honorable member, the Superintendent of Nelson, that he must consider the Government were released

from any understanding as to accepting the £60,000 arrangement. He (Mr. Vogel) was not disposed to bring in a Bill with an arbitration clause, because he held that such clauses were exceedingly unsatisfactory, unless the arbitrators were told the bases upon which they were to decide; and it was not the duty of the Government to advise the House, much more to put into a Bill, what they conceived to be the proper grounds of arbitration. He asked the honorable member whether he was anxious to see the Bill gone on with this session, and the honorable member replied, very fairly, that, as far as he was concerned, he would prefer seeing the Provincial Council consulted in the matter. Then, what remained for the Government to do but to withdraw the Bill for the session? If any honorable member had objected to the Bill, the Government could not, of its own knowledge, state any grounds for its passing, but could only refer to the report of the Nelson commissioner, and say that those were the terms upon which the Province of Nelson absolutely declined to receive the portion of country. There was no manner of agreement whatever, and the Government could not have done anything but what they had done. He told the honorable member for the Westland Boroughs, that the Government had not sufficient information on the subject, that he believed they would have to withdraw the Bill, and that they would appoint a Commission during the recess to examine into the whole subject. He told the honorable member, also, although he had been a uniform opponent of the Government during the session, the Government would have very much pleasure in asking him to act upon the Commission. The honorable member went away perfectly satisfied, he thought; but subsequently he (Mr. Vogel) received a letter which was framed in very strong language, objecting to the course the Government pursued; and he was still more amazed at the action subsequently taken in the House by that honorable member and the honorable member for Westland North. The opposition of the latter honorable member appeared to him to be rather gratuitous, as he never had any communication with him on the subject except on one occasion, when his impression was, that the honorable member did not indorse the prayer of the petition. There was a Select Committee appointed to examine into the subject. That Committee had before it the report of the Nelson Commissioner; and at the only meeting of the Committee, there was adopted a resolution which was moved by the Superintendent of Nelson, to the effect, "That, after the consideration of the petition of the inhabitants of the Grey Valley and Teremukau district, and the report of the commissioner appointed by the Superintendent of Nelson upon the subject, the Committee are of opinion, and recommend to the House, that the prayer of the petitioners be complied with." There was a division on the occasion, Mr. Gillies, Mr. Harrison, Mr. Curtis, and Mr. Kynnersley, voting for the proposal, and Mr. Richmond, Mr. Barif, and Mr. Stevens,

against it. There was another resolution moved by the honorable member for Grey and Bell, which, as far as he could understand, was to the effect, that the two districts should be united as a separate County. The honorable member voted for the resolution, that the districts on each side of the Grey River should be one, but he voted against the annexation to Nelson. There were four members for the second resolution, and three against it, and if he had been present he would have voted with the minority, so that there would have been an evenly balanced vote. As far as the Superintendent of Nelson was concerned, he certainly understood that that honorable member preferred that the Bill should be withdrawn for the session, unless the Government were prepared to accept his proposal with regard to the £50,000. But it was clearly impossible to recommend the House to do that with such information as they at present possessed; therefore he took it, that notwithstanding the Superintendent of Nelson moved the resolution, he approved of the Bill being withdrawn. Those were all the circumstances of the case. The House was not in possession of any information which would show that the proposed division of the County was desirable. Of course, there were a great many inconveniences, as had been pointed out, besides the maladministration of government, which, if the honorable member would allow him, he would say was not true altogether. They might admit that the County had got into difficulties and was not very provident, without saying that there had been any special misconduct on the part of those concerned in the government, which, in his opinion, was very queer and anomalous.

Mr. STAFFORD said the constitution of the County was assimilated to that of the Provinces. Mr. VOGEL.-It had all the faults of the Provinces, without some of their redeeming virtues. It was a toy for which the country would have to pay. It had been complained that inconvenience arose from having a populous district on each side of the boundary line. That was an inconvenience which might arise in any country, and the only way to get over the difficulty was, not to choose a navigable river for the boundary line, but, as far as possible, an impassable land division; yet the proposal of the honorable member for the Westland Boroughs was to substitute for the present boundary line-the Grey River-another river, the Teremakau, which was equally navigable, and which, at some future time, might have a populous township on each side, so that there would be again the same difficulty. He believed they could obtain a very well defined land division in the Razor Back. That was an opinion expressed to him by the Hon. Mr. Bonar, who was thoroughly acquainted with the district. He would conclude by saying that the Government were sincere in bringing down the Bill, believing that there were suflicient grounds for doing so, and feeling as they did that they could make up to the County of Westland for the loss of territory, by such additional assistance as the House would afford; but the more they looked

into the matter, the less necessity did they see for pressing the Bill. If they had gone on with it, they felt that there would be no pos sibility of being able to answer questions upon their own information. It was felt by the Government that the only course open to them was to appoint a Commission during the recess, to examine into the Government of Westland, and the circumstances under which it might be desir able to alter the northern boundary of that County, so as to come down next session with a distinct recommendation upon the subject. If he had succeeded in vindicating the Government from having acted a fickle part, and had shown that there had been no breach of any pledge made-for the honorable member had no right to state that a pledge had been given upon the subject-and that they had not acted a capricious part in withdrawing the Bill, he was satisfied. He had addressed the House at an unusual length considering the period of the session, because he believed the House had every right to expect from the Government a vindication of the charges which had been made, and upon which such extraordinary conduct was based, as they had witnessed the previous day. He would move that the order be discharged from the paper.

Mr. BARFF, in seconding the motion, said he had never been more surprised than on hearing the contents of the letter which had been read by the Colonial Treasurer. He believed it would not be quite parliamentary to say that it was a disgrace to any member of that or any Parliament to write such a letter.

The SPEAKER said that the honorable member was not in order in making use of the expression.

In

Mr. BARFF would not use the expression if it were out of order, but he would say that the letter was no credit to the honorable member for the Westland Boroughs, or to any gentleman who could write such a letter concerning a public body of which he was a member. the statements contained in the letter the writer had made no allusion to him (Mr. Barff), but he felt bound to vindicate the Council against such charges as had been made against them. The honorable member had stated in that letter, and he would seem desirous of impressing the Colonial Treasurer with the fact, that the present Chairman of the County of Westland was miserably unfit for the office he held. He (Mr. Barff) believed that the affairs of the County could not have been better administered by any one. It was one thing to be in office, and another to be out of it. It was quite different to be in the cool shades of opposition and to be in the possession of power. If the honorable member were himself in a position of authority, and had to contend with circumstances of peculiar difficulty in the administration of important affairs, he would find that it was one thing to administer affairs and another to talk about them. He challenged the honorable member who inade the statement, or any other honorable member, to say that there had been a single act of maladministration on the part of the Chairman of the County Council of Westland.

When