mittee of Supply or Committee of the whole. | an object which, to a large extent, affected life and The resolution, small as it appeared, would, if property. It was quite a mistake for the Colonial carried, involve a considerable expense to the Treasurer to say that the only object of the surColony. The Government, last year, were very vey was to supply information to the Admiralty. favourably impressed with the idea of continuing The object of the honorable member who moved the coast survey, but he believed now that they the resolution was a much higher one, it was were then under a mistake with regard to the with a view to the protection of life and property. intentions of their predecessors. He thought their He would certainly support the motion of the predecessors were inclined to doubt that the honorable member, as he regarded it as one of a Colony could afford this survey; but however that most important character. might have been, the Government took the subject up, believing the work could be done, but the information and experience they had since gained, led them to strongly recommend to the House that it was out of the question to continue the marine survey department. He believed that New Zealand might be said to be remarkably well surveyed-better, in fact, than many countries with a much older history. When vessels approached an iron-bound coast they did not steer by map-they steered by land. As to the last townships not being placed upon the Admiralty maps, it was not to be expected that small towns could get upon maps in the course of a few weeks after their first settlement. Mr. KYNNERSLEY said he meant harbours, not towns. Mr. VOGEL took it for granted that the honorable member alluded to small harbours with new towns established on them. The river upon which Charleston was built was upon the Admiralty maps. It was found that the expense incurred in connection with the marine survey was very large indeed. The Government were informed that, for all practical purposes, the surveys which had been made on the West Coast were sufficient for all the requirements of New Zealand for many years. On the whole, this country was fortunate in having such accurate surveys. As he had said before, it was not so much a question of maps,-on such a coast vessels generally steered by the land. He hoped the House would not assent to the motion, and so put the country to a large annual cost. The Admiralty would not bear part of the cost. It had been graciously pleased to signify to the Government that if they incurred the cost of a survey, it would not refuse to take advantage of the information afforded, but he thought that they were not in a position to afford that information to the Admiralty. It was enough to know that the shipping requirements of the coast were provided for so far as the survey was concerned, and when the Government found that the expenses of the survey were so heavy, they considered it might be safely dispensed with. Those now employed in connection with the department were executing maps on surveys already made. Mr. COLLINS was astonished to hear the Colonial Treasurer decline to give so small a sum as that asked for by the honorable member for Westland North for so important and necessary a work. He thought that as this House had determined to expend millions upon objects of, at most, problematical advantage, it would be a great disgrace to the country if they refused to expend the comparatively small sum now asked for upon Mr. BARFF wished to draw the attention of the House to the fact that when Lieutenant Woods was engaged in the marine survey, he borrowed a life-boat from the authorities at Hokitika for the purposes of the survey, and he had forgotten to return it. The boat had been built at Sydney at a cost of £120. When he (Mr. Barff) arrived in Wellington, he found the boat moored alongside the wharf, after having sustained damage to the extent of £30 or £40. He had communicated with the authorities at Hokitika, and he understood steps would be taken to return the boat to the owners. The Defence Minister, he understood, had very liberally offered to give away the boat to the "Luna." Mr. McLEAN begged to assure the honorable member that he had never made any offer of the kind. He had heard that there were two boats belonging to the "St. Kilda" and it was proposed to send one of them to Auckland. He never had any desire to deprive the honorable member or his constituents of their life-boat. Mr. HALL said that if Lieutenant Woods had forgotten to leave the life-boat, he had not forgotten to leave another and an exceedingly fine boat in its place. He was told the life-boat was not suited for Hokitika. He did not, at least, think that it had been much used while in the possession of the authorities at Hokitika. He was sorry to hear from the Colonial Treasurer that he was opposed to the completion of the marine survey. He understood that he was under the impression that it was the intention of the late Government not to complete the survey. If so, he laboured under a misapprehension. It was the intention of the late Government that Lieutenant Woods should complete the survey, but when they left office his services were more urgently needed in the North, and he was taken off the West Coast. It had always been the intention of the late Ministry to complete the survey, more particularly of Port Elizabeth. It had been partially surveyed, and Mr. Balfour was anxious that the survey should be completed, as, if it were found that it could be made a safe port, it would be of great advantage to that part of the coast. If honorable members looked at the report and maps attached to the last report of the marine department, they would see the importance of the work. The result of the Admiralty survey was printed in black, and that of Lieutenant Woods in red, and the latter showed that, on the Admiralty chart, several of the bays and heads were completely out of position. For instance: Abut Head, an important landmark, was no less than six miles out of position. The matter had been discussed in the House two or three years previously, when the then member for Parnell, who knew a good deal about the subject, was in the House, and he bore out what was then said by the Government. The Admiralty survey of the West Coast was, properly speaking, not a survey at all, it was merely a running survey. The ships, as they ran along the coast, made a running sketch and nothing more. They did not make such a proper and complete survey as we ought to possess. There was hardly any portion of that part of the coast correctly entered in the maps, and it was impossible to conceive that the Admiralty would desire to leave it in that position. The reason why the survey of the West Coast was not more satisfactory was because when it was made there was no reason to anticipate settlement on the West Coast at so early a period. The attention of the Admiralty surveyors, very naturally, had been directed to those portions of the coast where it was most likely settlement would take place. From the appearance of the country, they had no idea that the West Coast would have been settled, nor would it have been but for the discovery of gold. It was, therefore, no reflection upon the Admiralty surveyors if they did not make a more complete survey He agreed with the last speaker, that while they were about expending large sums of money upon a variety of purposes, they should not neglect one which really concerned the protection of life and property. The vessels which frequented that part of the coast had a right to expect that there would be a proper survey made. The cost would be comparatively small. He hoped that the Government would reconsider the clusion at which the Colonial Treasurer had arrived upon evidently very slender ground. If the honorable member for Westland North divided the House on the question, he would certainly vote with him. con Mr. GILLIES could not agree with some of the remarks made. It seemed to him that any further marine survey would be only incurring an unnecessary expense. From the large amount of information that he had obtained relative to the marine survey of New Zealand, he cordially indorsed the statement of the Colonial Treasurer that, for all practical purposes, the surveys were correct. That would be seen by any gentleman who took the trouble to refer to the map. A vessel did not usually run within six miles of the shore before she looked out for the land. There were a few cases in which there were errors, but they were trifling indeed. He did not wish to depreciate the accuracy of Lieutenant Woods' survey. He had seen something of what he had done in the North, and he gave him credit for making his surveys in a painstaking and complete manner, which justly entitled him to the commendation passed upon him by the officers of the ships in the harbour, but he did not think that that extreme accuracy was at all necessary for practical purposes, or for the safety of life and property. The present surveys were quite sufficient for that purpose. The time might come when the country would require a more accurate survey, but at present there was no necessity for it. In the North, Lieutenant Woods made some excellent surveys, showing some points of the land to be a little out of, and others a little within, the position indicated previously, but they were of no practical value to the coasting trade. It was only vessels from abroad which worked by the charts. Masters of coasting vessels worked by their local knowledge. An Hon. MEMBER.-What would they do in a fog? Mr. GILLIES thought that in a fog they would not go too near the land. He did not think that they were in a position to expend a large sum of money in completing the work at present. He thought it would be much more advisable to spend money upon their internal surveys, which were most defective. He had been informed by Mr. Heale, inspector of surveys, that he had found the width of the Island several miles in error in one place. He would cordially support this motion if it were really for the protection of life and property, but he did not believe that such was the case, and that any further survey would only be of value for scientific purposes. Mr. FOX said it had not been pointed out that there had been any loss of ships on the coast referred to in the honorable member's motion. If it could be shown that the vessels from Melbourne were in danger, or that there had been any actual loss, then the Government might be induced to take steps with a view of completing the survey. He had neither heard nor read-though he did not read many West Coast papers-of any shipwreck occurring that would call for action on the part of the Government. He had not heard of a single casualty that could be attributable to any deficiency in the survey of the West Coast. Any errors pointed out by the honorable member for Heathcote were of an insignificant character, and did not, as a rule, affect vessels. The honorable member was not quite correct in saying that the Admiralty had only made a running survey of the coast. The first vessel that went out was under the command of Commodore, afterwards Admiral Stokes, who was a first-class nautical surveyor. He did not make a very close survey of that coast, though he made a very fair examination of it. In consequence of the work being more or less incomplete, he was followed by Commodore Drury, in the "Pandora," and he finished up the work which Admiral Stokes had left uncompleted for lack of time. Some slight errors may still exist, but, on the whole, the present survey of the coast was sufficient for all practical purposes. He had not heard any complaint from nautical men or merchants as to the danger of the approaches on the West Coast of New Zealand. Even supposing that there had been some complaints as to the rate of insurance paid in Melbourne upon vessels coming down here, the difference upon the existing rate and that which might be charged in the event of Lieutenant Woods completing the survey would be scarcely appreciable. He thought the honorable member who had brought forward the motion would not venture to say that, if the survey of the West Coast were completed, it would make any material difference in the rate of in- open up the Grey coal mines it would be a reprosurance. At the time the coast was almost ductive expenditure of the public money. To unknown, and the names of the towns quite that extent he should be prepared to support the unknown, a difference in the insurance might motion of the honorable member for Westland be created; but he did not think any appreci- North. He did not quite agree with the Colonial able difference in the rate of insurance would Treasurer that those surveys were becoming very be the result of now completing the survey large; they were not extensive in past years. It of the West Coast. The argument used by would always be in the power of the House, and the honorable member for Heathcote and the the Government, to determine the amount to be honorable member for Collingwood did not tend expended from year to year on such surveys. He to make him favourable to the motion, but had did not think they were bound to complete the quite the contrary effect. It was an argument he surveys of the coast of New Zealand, but, at the had heard frequently used of late, and which same time, they should not definitely decide that contained a patent fallacy-that, because they they should not, in any case, make a survey. were going to spend ten millions of money, they Cases might be made out, from time to time, should not refuse to spend a little more. It where it would be a very profitable and proper reminded him of the American who became expenditure of money. He trusted the Governbankrupt, owing 500,000 dollars, and how he ment would, to the extent indicated, at all events, accounted for it. It was the fifty dollar sofa accede to the motion-to carry out the survey of he had bought his wife, who insisted on having Port Elizabeth, so as to render it a safe and a handsome bedstead to match, then a complete valuable harbour. suite of French furniture and a stylish carriage, and finally a palace in Fifth Avenue. Because the Government was going to enter upon a large expenditure on public works, that was the very reason for economy in other matters, and ought not to be urged as an excuse for every piece of extravagance which any individual member might suggest. Mr. STAFFORD agreed with the honorable gentleman opposite, that because they were going to spend ten millions of money it was no argument for spending anything more, but there would always be a difference of opinion as to what were the most urgent works on which the money should be spent. He thought considerable claims might be made from time to time for marine surveys at different places. It must be borne in mind that, during the last few years, the traffic along the West Coast had been very large indeed. Steamers were constantly coming from Melbourne and from Nelson on the one side and Dunedin on the other side to ports on the West Coast. It was true that the accidents which had occurred had not been such as would be remedied by a coast survey, but were accidents resulting from the bars in the harbours, which smaller vessels were compelled to take. He thought it would be very desirable to expend some hundreds of pounds in the survey of a portion of that coast; for instance, in the survey of Port Elizabeth. The late Superintendent of Nelson had shown him a map of that port, and pointed out the necessity for having it surveyed, and that gentleman was under the impression that a moderate expenditure in raising and increasing the height of the natural breakwater formed by some rocks might make it a very safe harbour indeed for moderate sized vessels. He had been informed by the present Superintendent, the honorable member for Nelson City (Mr. Curtis), that it commanded the whole of the Grey Valley and the celebrated Grey coal mines. He thought sufficient exploration should be made before it was determined that no effort should be made to render that a safe port. If it did nothing else but Mr. KYNNERSLEY, in reply, stated that the arguments which had been used went to show that there was no use in any surveys at all. They had been told that the charts were practically correct, when they were actually more than nine miles out. It was not alone the Abut Head which was incorrectly laid down, but every headland along the coast was incorrectly laid down on the Admiralty chart. When they were going to a large expenditure for the erection of lighthouses, surely it was somewhat inconsistent that they should longer allow the prominent headlands on the West Coast to be miles out on the chart. He would not comment on the singular nautical remark made by the Postmaster-General, that vessels did not steer by the chart but steered by the land. Without the chart they did not know where the land was. That was not the opinion of the navigating officers of the fleet, or the masters of large vessels. He admitted that there had been no wrecks on the West Coast, but that was chiefly because masters of large steamers, knowing that the charts were so inaccurate, kept a very long way out from the coast, and were afraid to approach it, which made the time in rounding the headlands unnecessarily long. The honorable member for Mongonui had told them that he would rather see the money expended on internal survey. It was no use expending money on internal survey when the whole coast line was considerably out in its bearings; and he might also say that in Westland much valuable survey work had been done by the co-operation of the marine and land surveyors. The Postmaster-General had told them that the country could not afford to complete the survey of the West Coast, but it was in the interest of economy that he (Mr. Kynnersley) had made the motion. The survey had been half completed at an expenditure of £3,000, and a like sum would complete it. It would not "entail a heavy annual expenditure," as the Postmaster-General had stated. A thoroughly efficient staff was ready to complete the work, and it would be very false economy to discharge that survey staff. He did not feel disposed to do as the Premier had suggested-to wait until there | all, or used the wrong stamps, and when disputes was a wreck on the coast. The question was whether they should have the work completed now, when they had an efficient staff ready to do it, or wait until wrecks occurred, entailing loss of life and property. Mr. FOX.-My argument was that no wrecks had occurred, as the coast was well known. Mr. VOGEL wished to observe, with reference to the remarks of the honorable member for Timaru, as to Port Elizabeth, that the Government did not mean to say that where there appeared to be any great necessity for making a survey they should be precluded from doing so. They desired that the department should be done away with. Question put, "That the motion be agreed to," upon which a division was called for, with the following result :— Ayes Noes 19 29 10 Mr. J. C. Wilson, C.B. Mr. Collins, NOES. Mr. Mervyn, Mr. Munro, Mr. O'Neill, STAMP DUTIES ACT. Mr. KYNNERSLEY, in moving the motion standing in his name, might say that he had just heard that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill on the subject, so that he would not detain the House with any lengthened remarks. The present state of the Stamp Duties Act was so complicated and technical, that ordinary men, without taking legal advice on the matter, could not avail themselves of it. On the West Coast the miners could not always get the impressed paper, and they were continually making agreements with regard to the transfer of mining property. They had either no stamps at about those matters came before the wardens or resident magistrates, the Court was placed in the unfortunate position of being either obliged to admit an illegal document or do an injustice. That was a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. With regard to mining property, the ad valorem system of duties was, in many cases, quite impracticable. In regard to the transfer of mining property, the stamp used was according to the value of the property transferred. The transfer of a share or half-share was often made on condition that the other party would supply provisions until gold was found, and as it was impossible to know the value of the claim, they did not know what the proper stamp would amount to. In some cases of agreements as to the transfer of a part of a claim, and the supply of water, which were to exist but for a few days, the miners were obliged to put on the 10s. stamp required for documents not otherwise specified in the schedule of the Act. Mr. GILLIES, in seconding the motion, could cordially support the remarks made by the honorable member for Westland North in regard to the extreme inconvenience, not merely with regard to the mining community, but in regard to the community generally, especially those who were not living in the centres of population, arising from the unsatisfactory state of things existing under the present Stamp Duties Act. He was very glad to hear that the Government were contemplating some amendment in the Act. He could assure the Government, from his own personal knowledge, that there was a very large loss to the revenue on account of the inadequate supply of stamps in places distant from the centres of population. People would rather run the risk of using unstamped documents than be at the enor mous expense of getting them. He knew of one case in which a postmaster applied to have a small stock of stamps sent to him and he was informed that if he paid for them he would receive 24 per cent. discount. The postmaster would be obliged to be out of his money until he sold the stamps. The thing was absurd, and postmasters would not do it. If the law was to be carried out in country districts, and in places outside the commercial centres, it must be done in the same way as at home. There, wherever postmasters were supplied with a certain amount of stamps, they were debited to him, and he must account for them. The stamp law would not be properly carried out unless that were done. The community generally would be unable to legalize a bargain in the case of agreements. Persons travelling about the interior of the country, and mining communities, were constantly bargaining about various matters, and, unless they carried stamped papers with them, they were absolutely unable to enter into a legal contract, because the stamps were not to be obtained. He would recommend those remarks as information to the Postmaster-General, and he was very glad to hear that some amendment in the present state of things was likely to be brought about. Motion made, and question proposed, "That this House is of opinion that the Stamp Duties Act should be so amended as to legalize the use of adhesive, instead of impressed stamps, upon all documents relating to mining property."-(Mr. Kynnersley.) an was introduced it would be simple and intelligible, and that provision would be made for the use of an adhesive stamp of uniform value. This would not only be a great convenience to the public, but would yield an increase to the revenue. Motion agreed to. Mr. VOGEL was very much obliged to the honorable member for Mongonui for the suggestions he had made. There was not the slightest WEIGHTS AND MEASURES ACT. doubt that stamp duties generally were Mr. BARFF, in moving, That the Governawful nuisance, and there was no more unpopular ment be requested to introduce a Bill during the officer than the Commissioner of Stamps, in every present session to amend "The Weights and part of the country, among all persons who used Measures Act, 1868, said that his motive for stamps. With reference to the motion of the placing that notice on the paper was simply that, honorable member for Westland North, he might on reading the report of the Select Committee state that the course the Government proposed to appointed to inquire into the operation of "The adopt was to legalize the adhesive stamp for mining Weights and Measures Act, 1868," he found deeds, but not to such an extent as to offer any in- that the Committee and he spoke with all ducement to persons not to purchase impressed respect of them-did not appear to have stamps. It was proposed that if an adhesive obtained a great amount of information, nor stamp were used on a deed, the document, in did they appear to have been anxious to order to be legal, should be sent to the stamp obtain it. He would not refer to the report office to be stamped. The Government would further than to say that there were several make it as easy as possible for persons to send statements contained in it which he considered such documents to be stamped. Although he had to be at variance with the true facts of the every desire to facilitate the business of the case. The report said that little was ever done miners, he did not see his way to do more than in any district to protect the public against the he had now stated. There were strong depart- use of any fraudulent weights and measures. mental objections raised to the motion. He hoped He could say that a great deal was done the honorable member would be satisfied with the in some districts to protect the public, and, but assurance that he would introduce a Bill, and for some defects in the Act, the public would be endeavour to have it passed this session, by which protected to a greater extent than they were at the use of adhesive stamps would be legalized on the present time. He would suggest some alteracondition that, within a certain time, documents tions which, he thought, might with advantage be so stamped should be sent to the stamp office to made in the Weights and Measures Act. In the be stamped. They had heard a great deal first place, the principal defect in the Act was about the dissatisfaction with which the last that there was no penalty to force the sellers of amendment of the Stamp Act was received-bread to sell according to weight. That was the that as to using an impressed bill stamp. It was admitted that although that amendment had been productive of great inconvenience, it had been also productive of a large increase of revenue, showing that the previous custom of using adhesive stamps did not secure to the Government as large an amount of revenue as ought to have been secured. The stamp duties were no doubt a great nuisance, but if persons who were honestly disposed must submit to the penalties and inconvenience of paying those duties, it was but reasonable that persons who had more convenient consciences should submit to the same inconvenience. The only object the Government had was to insure that the amount which ought to be collected by law should be collected. Mr. PEACOCK hoped the Colonial Treasurer would make a similar concession with respect to bill stamps, and allow adhesive stamps to be used instead of the present impressed stamps. Parties going into the country to transact business were often put to great inconvenience by not having impressed bill stamps with them, and being unable to procure them. If adhesive stamps were permitted temporarily in such cases, to be replaced within a certain time, as was suggested by the Treasurer, it would be a great accommodation to the whole Colony. Mr. KYNNERSLEY hoped that when the Bill VOL. IX.-12. first great defect in the Act. It would be in the recollection of honorable members that a Bill was introduced, in 1868, intituled the Millers and Bakers Bill, which brought down a great amount of ridicule from all sides of the House; but if that Bill had been carried, it would have been of great benefit to the public. He would suggest that the sellers of bread should be bound to sell it according to weight. In the second place, the penalties under the Act were not heavy enough. He would cite, in proof of that, a case which occurred in the district from which he came, to show that the penalties were not only altogether too light, but that the provisions of the Act, when an endeavour was made to enforce them, were taken no notice of whatever. With regard to the sale of coal by weight, that was altogether a dead letter under the Act as it stood at the present time. To his certain knowledge, not long since, coal was weighed on the Hokitika wharf, and found to be six hundredweight short in the ton. In two cases, which occurred within the last three or four weeks, it was found that the coal was four hundredweight short in the ton, and yet, in each case, a fine of only 10s. was inflicted. There was no protection to the public whatever. He would suggest that the highest penalty should be enforced, instead of leaving it to the discretion |