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such conduct? Would they not combine for self-defence? He did not believe that there was any present intention amongst the Catholics of having recourse to force. But they were not their own masters; they must obey the commands of those who professed to represent them. He would not say that it was the intent of those leaders to adopt violent measures, but if the population they commanded became irritated, however good their intentions might be, desperate men would take the lead of them, and produce a catastrophe which they did not contemplate. They would be forced over that precipice where they now meant to stop, like a man pressed forward by millions. It was, therefore, no answer that the intentions of the Association were honest (hear, hear). Then salus populi, which was truly suprema lex, called on them to interfere and put an end to this institution. But it was said, although the mischief were great, there was another remedy. On this subject he would state his opinion once for all. He considered Catholic Emancipation as a measure, without which all others must be ineffectual. As a claim of right and justice, it would baffle human ingenuity to furnish any argument against it. He lamented that it should be deferred a single hour; for the longer it was deferred the more difficult it would be to grant it. But when this alternative was proposed, instead of the present measure, the question was, "Can we have it?" He thought not. Then said those who opposed the present proposition" Because we cannot have that measure, do not put down the mischief." If there were persons who had the power to do away with the necessity for the present proceeding, and neglected the means, they were answerable for the consequences (hear, hear.) He would now, with the leave of the house, endeavour to examine that question, and to meet it fairly, and would

be ready to take his own share of the responsibility (hear, hear.) (The learned gentleman here entered upon a defence of his joining the administration, which he ascribed to a conviction that a ministry united on the question of Emancipation could not be formed, and that the question might be carried independently.) He had, on four occasions, since he accepted office, received the public thanks of the Catholics for his services in their cause, accompanied with expressions of confidence in the continuance of those services. That confidence was not withdrawn even when he refused to present the petition as from the Association. In November last, when it was resolved that the Catholic petition should be confided to the honourable baronet (Sir F. Burdett,) it was resolved, on the motion of Mr Wolffe, that the Catholics, though they confided the petition to another, still relied confidently upon the continuance of his usual support. He did not think they could have placed their cause in more efficient hands than those of the honourable baronet, and when the measure should be introduced, the honourable baronet might feel assured that he would not walk out of the house leaving him (the honourable baronet) in the unpleasant situation in which he (Mr Plunkett) had been placed on a former occasion (hear, hear! from the Treasury benches.) He did not blame the honourable baronet, for he believed that neither in nor out of Parliament there existed a more just or consistent individual, whether viewed in the various relations of public or private life (hear, hear.) The honourable baronet needed not any praise of his, but justice compelled him to say so much.-One word more as to the effect of the Association. It was calculated to check the disposition of the people of this country, which he perceived was daily inclining them in favour of the Catholic claims. He differed from his right honourable

friend (Mr Peel) on this point. The people of England were beginning to see that the game of governing by division would no longer succeed, but that success could only be bought by conciliation. They began to be aware, that if a great deal were not done to blight the gifts which Providence had bestowed upon her, Ireland would become one of the most fertile sources of British prosperity. The idea of the separation of the two countries was idle and absurd. But it was said that the Association spoke the sentiments of the Irish people. So they did-so did he, and so would every man who advocated the cause of Emancipation. But beyond that, the Association did not represent their feelings; and he denied that the people of Ireland would resent its abolition. The clergy and the country gentlemen were tired of seeing their usual influence with the people taken from them by this body. Even the members of the Association would acquiesce quietly in the law which would put an end to their power. They were, many of them, sensible men, who would be aware of the inutility of opposing the will of the legislature. Mr O'Connell himself would be of this opinion. Mr O'Connell was a man of great talent and acquirements, although in his political opinions somewhat wild and extravagant; nevertheless, he was persuaded that neither he, nor Lord Fingall, Lord Gormanstown, nor any other gentleman connected with the Association, would descend to any pettifogging tricks to evade the operation of this measure. He believed that the great body of the people would regard the bill as an honourable excuse to get rid of the influence of that body (loud cheers.)

Mr Tierney observed, it had so happened that he had never before opened his lips in any debate on the question of Emancipation: nor should he have done so now, did he not consider the present to be a crisis of great danger

to the empire. The cabinet could not agree upon a measure of general conciliation; so, in lieu of it, they hit upon an expedient which was to have directly the contrary effect (hear, hear). Was it not strange that this Cabinet could never pull together, except when some privileges of the people were to be invaded, and that when a measure of conciliation was proposed, then nothing was agreed upon except not to agree at all (hear, hear)? His habits and opinions were all with the Established Church, although he was not blind to its imperfections; and no man would be more zealous than himself to oppose the Catholic claims, if he thought them injurious to the church. In offering his reasons against this measure, it was unnecessary for him to go into the Catholic question. The dangers of a Popish pretender, and the chance of a Popish succession to the throne, such as they were, had gone by; but there was a danger of another kind, and to that he would confine himself;—it was the danger arising from the discontent of the Catholic population. He should observe that it was unprecedented in the annals of Parliament, that they should legislate against a particular body, without having one fact before them that the acts of that body were wrong. In the case of this Association, it was assumed throughout that all their acts were the result of bad intentions. What right had any man to make such an assumption? There was complaint enough against them, but no evidence. It was complained, that the Association had taken upon themselves to inquire into the Catholic grievances-into the administration of justice in the law courts-into the abuses of tithes, and other matters. Now it was quite competent to them so to do, and they who called upon the legislature to prevent them were bound to show that there was something bad at the bottom of all those things. He implored the House

to consider that they were not dealing with a little knot of men, who might be ill-disposed but powerless; they were dealing with six millions of people; with the great body of the Irish nation. He had not very minutely followed the proceedings of the Association; but as far as he had seen accounts of them in the newspapers, he saw nothing to create an apprehension of danger. He saw a few intemperate speeches. Oh! but those were made by men who assumed the functions of an executive government; and the House were told of the pernicious effects of having prosecutions carried on by such men, of the ill temper it generated, and of the difficulty of obtaining impartial trials under such circumstances. No doubt these things sounded highly, and were likely to catch the country gentlemen; but how was this account borne out by facts? It appeared that one of the magistrates appointed to preside at these trials (Mr Blackburn) had publicly thanked Mr O'Gorman for the temper and humanity with which he had conducted those proceedings (hear hear). The learned gentleman had surely made use of exaggerated statements, when he alluded to the dreadful consequences that must follow upon the acts of the Association. Among other alarming assertions, he had stated that they had an army--an army, as he was pleased to call it in a parenthesis (a laugh)of 30,000 men; armed with a leather bag in their van; and a slate to register their collections. And this army was headed by 2500 priests (laughter)! If the learned gentleman meant to insinuate, that these 30,000 collectors and 2500 priests applied their collections to an improper purpose; or if he meant that they collected subscriptions to a dangerous amount, why did he not speak out plainly (hear, hear)? Let the House hear that this general contribution of all Ireland amounted to £10,000 (hear, hear). When the right

honourable gentleman (Mr Goulburn) stated the details upon which he had framed this bill, he did not understand that he felt any alarm upon this subject; it would be ridiculous to suppose that he did. But if the learned gentleman thought so, did he think this bill could put a stop to the collection? If he did, he was utterly mistaken. That collection was confided to the priests. Priests might be prohibited from collecting rent for the Association: but it was well known that they collected moneys among their flocks for other purposes beside those of the rent; and did the right honourable gentleman suppose that he, or any body else, could find out, if the Catholic population continued their weekly subscriptions of three-halfpence each, what became of the odd halfpenny (laughter and cheers)? He could not be so absurd. Why, then, the only difference which the bill could make, would be to convert an open contribution into a secret one. And what could be worse, more impolitic and foolish, than to compel men, who now acted in the face of day for a known object, to work in the dark? It was far from his wish to make any inflammatory observations; but he must say, that their grievances pressed heavily upon the people of Ireland, and that if these collections were so employed as to serve the great object of obtaining redress for those grievances, they were very laudably appropriated. Now, that was the declared purpose of this Association. But now came the learned gentleman, and objected to the Association altogether; because, he said, it was contrary to "the spirit of the constitution." This was a phrase much used in that house; and particularly by gentlemen on the other side, when they brought in any measure like this bill (hear, hear). The worst of it was, that much as was said about "the spirit of the constitution," nobody could learn what it was (a laugh).

There was no getting at the definition of the words even from the speaker who used them: especially if they fell from a lawyer (a laugh). It was in vain that you explained and inquired: he directly met you with some Act of Parliament; and there was an end of you and the spirit of the constitution too (a laugh). But what was the learned gentleman's own version of the words? Why, that for a body representing 6,000,000 of people, labouring under admitted grievances (hear, hear), to meet together for procuring redress by their own exertions, and with their own means, was contrary to the spirit of the constitution! For his own part, he thought that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were right in taking up the matter themselves. They had been driven to it, by repeated disappointment from the failure of many promises and the treachery of many friends. Why had they been led to believe-and most honestly as regarded the learned gentleman, to whose exertions their cause was, beyond doubt, exceedingly indebted-why had they been led to believe that their cause was espoused by the most enlightened men in the country? But why was it impossible to carry this question? He would ask that learned person to look back-not to 1813, nor to the circumstances under which it presented itself to Parliament in 1813; but to 1821, when the Bill which had been adverted to was carried in that house (cheers), and when, according to the learned gentleman-a fact that it must be very satisfactory to the right honourable Secretary for Ireland to hear (a laugh)"Ireland was a wreck upon the breakers" (loud cheers, and some expression of dissent from Mr Plunkett). He was much mistaken, his memory must have totally failed him, if the learned gentleman, when speaking of Ireland, and reviewing the progress of events in that country, did not, after regarding

his own handy-work since he had been in office, with great complacency, declare that Ireland was then "a wreck upon the breakers" (laughter). And, indeed, he had thought at the time that the learned gentleman's neighbour, there, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, would have to add a new stanza to his old song of the pilot that weathered the storm,' in compliment to this new pilot. For now he found that we are all in sunshine again; there were no more breakers; not a thought about a wreck; and the water we were sailing in was as smooth as a mill-pond (loud laughter). All this beautiful tranquillity, too, was owing to the learned gentleman by whom, together with the Marquis Wellesley, it had been entirely effected. But he desired to learn what they had done towards ensuring the peace of Ireland? The learned gentleman had carried the Catholic claims through that house: but it was afterwards defeated in the other. It was important to look back at that majority and minority. In that house he obtained the great majority of 90 (cheers); in another house-a place which he did not feel himself at liberty to describe, at present, in any other way than by saying it was a place wherein there sat certain gentlemen who had the privilege of wearing white sleeves (laughter)—there was a majority of 38 against him. But of those 38 individuals, it happened that no less than 25 were adorned in the way he had mentioned. Now, was it quite impossible to believe, that if Government had sincerely backed the measure, these white sleeves might have been found in the other part of the division (a laugh)? Certain it was that the Catholics were again disappointed; and that, in the autumn of that very year, the learned gentleman took office. He imputed no motives. He was ready to believe that the learned gentleman accepted office with the most honourable inten

tions. But he did take it; and at the same time strode over from that side of the house to the other. Why the learned gentleman was made Attorney-General for Ireland, except for deserting the Catholics, he was at a loss to know. But if he had been made AttorneyGeneral for deserting them, he might reasonably expect to be made Lord Chancellor for attacking them (laughter). But the learned gentleman had informed them, "that he had since changed his opinion;" and that he had changed it upon the purest and most conscientious principles, there could be no doubt, for he had told them so himself (a laugh). But, however irre proachable his motives might be, he owed a duty to others as well as himself. When he joined that administration, did he reserve this point? Did he stipulate for this vital question? Did he make his own price?—He did not mean in an offensive sense: he was speaking only of the conditions which an individual, who took with him such talent and influence as the learned gentleman had done to ministers, might honourably propose and expect. Did he say to those ministers, "Here I come, with my wares in this bag (a laugh). You see what I have done for Ireland on this important subject; take me with my talents and my eloquence, but secure to me the successful result of my exertions for this question (hear, hear)." But the learned gentleman had done nothing of all this; and he said his reason was, that no administration could be formed on the opposition side that could carry the Catholic question. Perhaps he was right; though his reason was not very complimentary: but surely he might have found members enough on that side to make up half such an administration. Pray did the learned gentleman, in his difficulty, ever try the experiment of forming an administration, half from that side of the house and half from the ministerial

side (laughter and cheers)? Had he proposed any such experiment in 1821, when he brought the Catholic question forward? No such thing; and the reason seemed to be, that at that very time he was about to take up his quarters on the other side. He was at that moment, to use a sailor's phrase, with his anchor a-peak for the Treasury benches (a laugh). He did not mean to quarrel with him on that account ; for he confessed that at that time a sort of cloud hung over the Opposition, which was not very encouraging to old practitioners. The learned gentleman said, he had never been attached to any party; but when he crossed the floor, they made him Attorney-General for Ireland: and to make a man AttorneyGeneral used always to be considered as attaching the individual to the party of the administration (hear, hear). But then he was not attached to a party, but only to Lord Grenville. Now he would say, that he very well remembered when the learned gentleman was once as warmly attached to a noble friend of his (Mr T.'s), as he had ever been to Lord Grenville. Some differences arose between that noble friend and Lord Grenville upon the question of the war, and the learned gentleman came down to him (Mr T.), and told him, that notwithstanding his attachment, he thought Lord Grenville had taken the most wise, and enlarged, and statesman-like view of the case, and that therefore- -he should vote with his lordship (a laugh). No blame was attributable to the learned gentleman on that account. He probably foresaw that the greater number of people would take the same view as Lord Grenville; and the Grenvilles, in fact, soon came into favour. It was curious enough to mark the effect of circumstances upon the opinions of the learned gentleman while he sat with the Opposition. On the question of the war he was much alarmed; the six acts put

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