Gen. GORGAS. In general terms, 25 doctors, 50 nurses, and about 100 other personnel-cooks, orderlies, etc., which amounts to about 175 people. Several of those hospitals have been increased enormously. We sent over 500 beds, and some of them are up to 1,500. We also sent over additional personnel.

The CHAIRMAN. You have to increase the personnel as you increase the number of beds?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir. The English have run their hospitals on a much larger scale than we have. This personnel went right into the English hospital; they just took over the buildings, patients, beds, and all.

Mr. SHERLEY. The funds that come under this heading of “Medical and Hospital Department" are the funds with which you secure all the supplies for hospitals, both here and abroad, whether they are permanent or field and whether they are temporary at cantonments or elsewhere. Is that true?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It has nothing to do with the cost of building hospitals in this country?

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Has it anything to do with the building of hospitals abroad?

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It has only to do with supplies and equipment?

Gen. GORGAS. It is the same item that we have year after year in the regular appropriation.

Mr. SHERLEY. I understand. It is simply for supplies and equipment?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Manifestly, the amount of supplies and, to some extent, the amount of equipment that you are going to need for troops in America is going to be very much less than what you are going to need for troops that are abroad engaged in actual hostilities?

Gen. GORGAS. I do not exactly see that; it will be just the same.

Col. FISHER. I am not sure that I get what you mean. In addition to equipment we have to pay for the upkeep of a certain number of employees. We have also to pay for laundrying the patients' clothing, and a number of sundries. All these items are included in the upkeep.

Mr. SHERLEY. This has nothing to do with buildings of any kind? Col. FISHER. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. What I asked a moment ago was, Did it not follow of necessity that you would require a very much less quantity of supplies and have a very much less wastage of supplies for the troops stationed in America than for those actually abroad in the field?

Gen. GORGAS. As to surgical dressings, if we are going to have 25 per cent wounded those things will be considerably larger. We have made no particular allowance for that in our estimate.

Col. FISHER. We must use larger quantities abroad than in this country in time of war.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have no idea of having anything like 2,000,000 men in the field prior to July of next year?

Gen. GORGAS. Over there?

Mr. SHERLEY. Yes, sir; in the field.

Gen. GORGAS. For everything, except surgical dressings, we would need the same here as there.

Mr. SHERLEY. If a man becomes ill or gets hurt; but, presumably, there will not be anything like the demand upon the Medical Department for men sick here that there will be for men sick abroad who are actually engaged in hostilities?

Gen. GORGAS. Do you mean hospital accommodations?

Mr. SHERLEY. Yes, sir.

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have made your estimate for 2.000,000 men and for supplies sufficient to take care of those men if they were all in the field?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; simply because we do not dare to be unprepared. We feel that we must get those things and know where we are going to get them. We do not dare to take the responsibility of not having those things when needed. We feel that we must give the orders now, in order to have the things when needed. That has been the great difficulty all the time; we have not had the things when needed.

Mr. SHERLEY. Nobody is questioning that in the slightest, and certainly I would be the last man on earth who would question the wisdom of having all the supplies necessary for our troops; but that has not necessarily to do with the financial phase of it that I am trying to develop. That is this, if you are not going to have anything like 2,000,000 men in the field by July-if I understand, your estimates are built on the supposition of having supplies for 2,000,000 men by July next, even should those men be in the field. In other words, you are getting enough supplies for 2,000,000 men in the field next July?

Col. FISHER. We will have to give the orders for them now, in order to have them by next July.

Mr. SHERLEY. I am not questioning your need or expressing an opinion. If I understand your estimates, they are based on the idea of having sufficient supplies to take care of 2,000,000 men in the field? Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. From now until next July?

Col. FISHER. Not from now until next July.

Mr. SHERLEY. I do not mean 2,000,000 men immediately in the field, but, assuming at the beginning of July, 1918, there will be 2,000,000 men in the field, your estimates contemplate supplies that would be sufficient to take care of them in this country and abroad in whatever proportion they may go abroad up to the 2,000,000 men on July 1?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; and we must place orders for them now, in order to get them.

Mr. SHERLEY. Your estimates which were originally submitted to this committee were on a peace basis. You then revised them and figured that you needed $49,535,000 for a million men, gas masks not being included, and that made an item of something over a million dollars. Now, your figures would indicate that you expect to have to have over $60,000,000 in place of about $50,000,000 for a million

men.

Col. FISHER. In the item of gas masks, for instance, we were told at the time the other estimate was submitted to provide for 200,000. Now we are told that we must provide at the rate of two gas masks for every man.

Mr. SHERLEY. What do the gas masks cost?

Col. FISHER. We estimate that they will cost at the rate of $12 a man. Each man has to have two gas masks, and, in addition, we have to have the oxygen apparatus for resuscitation, and what they call trench sprayers, to spray chemicals into the trenches filled with gas. The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean $12 a man or $12 a mask? Col. FISHER. Twelve dollars a man.

The CHAIRMAN. And that would be two masks for each man?
Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And on the basis of 2,000,000 men that would be $24,000,000 alone?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You figured when you testified here before that your gas masks would cost $1,000,000, and that was for 200,000 men, which would be $5 a mask.

Col. FISHER. We were only contemplating one mask per man at that time.

Mr. SHERLEY. And $5 a mask.

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And now you figure it at $6 a mask.

Col. FISHER. And we have found now that we have to give two masks to each man.

Mr. SHERLEY. If it is $12 a man, and two masks for each man, that would make one mask cost $6.

Col. FISHER. We are counting now what we did not count before, repairs and replacements and additions. We did not count that as we ought to have. We have learned a great deal since that first estimate went in.

Mr. SHERLEY. Eliminating the gas masks, your revised estimate which you said was just a guess, and that guess made by doubling your peace estimate, which had been about $24,000,000 and which you then doubled to $49,000,000, has that figure remained constant, and are you now expecting, exclusive of gas masks, to be able to supply 1,000,000 men for about $49,000,000?

Col. FISHER. No, sir: I do not think we could do it for that.
Mr. SHERLEY. Well, what do you expect to do it for?

Col. FISHER. It will cost more nearly in the neighborhood of $60,000,000.

Mr. SHERLEY. Then your estimate here is inadequate, because if it costs $60,000,000, that would make $120,000,000, and if you added to that $24,000,000 for your masks that would make $144,000,000, whereas you are asking $139,000,000, which would be a difference of $5,000,000. Have your estimates now which enable you to estimate this $100,000,000 as the additional amount needed, been based upon any unit basis by which you have worked out what it is going to cost? Col. FISHER. We have tried to work it out on a unit basis. Mr. SHERLEY. What is that unit basis?

Col. FISHER. In ordinary peace times, for instance, we felt that it cost about $8 a man. Now, for war we feel that it will cost at least

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$25 per man for the upkeep of our hospitals. That is the war basis that we have worked it on.

Mr. SHERLEY. What do you mean by upkeep, initial equipment and upkeep?

Col. FISHER. No, sir; just the upkeep. The initial equipment we estimated, as shown on the first page of the memorandum which is submitted, would be the equipment of field units like regimental hospitals, regimental camp infirmaries, field hospitals, ambulance companies, evacuation hospitals, etc., and we estimated that original equipment to cost in the neighborhood of $29,815,000.

Mr. SHERLEY. For how many people?

Col. FISHER. For a second million men.
Mr. SHERLEY. For 1,000,000 men?
Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. $29,000,000 to equip 1,000,000 men not at war.
Col. FISHER. Just for the field equipment.

Mr. SHERLEY. What is the maintenance cost of that for one year? Col. FISHER. We have estimated at the rate of $25 per man in addition to that.

Mr. SHERLEY. For men not at war?

Col. FISHER. No, sir; for men at war.

Mr. SHERLEY. That would make $25,000,000 additional for 1,000,000

men.

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And that would make a total of $54,000,000. What I am trying to get at. Colonel, is the way you have estimated this. It is plain that you can not have 2.000.000 men on a war basis and that at least one-half of that number will, during the entire period for which you are figuring, never be on a war basis: that is, never be engaged in actual war abroad.

Col. FISHER. But we do feel very strongly, sir, that we ought to go ahead and get the supplies so they will be ready when they do go to war. Now, our estimate of the additional amount needed for he initial equipment is $29,000,000 and that is for equipping the troops for the field. They need that in any case. Then for gas masks, trench sprayers, oxygen apparatus, etc., $23,000,000 more. Then we have to buy a lot of belts to equip hospital corps men which were Tormerly bought by the Ordnance Department. We have to buy them now, and they will cost $1,755,000. The upkeep during the year we estimate to cost $28.025.000. Then there are some additional small items. In addition to all this, there is bound to be a certain amount of war wastage. If one of our ships going abroad filled with medical supplies, costing millions of dollars, is sunk by a submarine, which is very likely to occur not to one but to perhaps several, we must count on replacing that material; and in addition, there will be a great amount of wastage at the front. Some of our hospital equipment may be captured and some of it may have to be burned or destroyed, so we feel that we must allow an additional 20 per cent for war wastage, losses at sea, etc.

Mr. SHERLEY. If I understand you, Colonel, the real matter that the Medical Department is concerned about is being in position to order supplies which take considerable time for delivery in such quantities as to make certain that you will have sufficient supplies for 2.000.000 men, whether those 2,000,000 men should actually be in

France a year from now or not, because, assuming that they should not be there, some of them, by July next, they would be continually being sent across and you would not be in a position to gather additional supplies unless you made provision now by contract for them. Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, I understand from what has been said informally that your hospital beds, or rather your beds for men, have been based on a percentage of 3 per cent for soldiers here in the United States and 25 per cent for soldiers actually at the front and engaged in hostilities.

Gen. GORGAS. That is our estimate for hospital provision.
Mr. SHERLEY. That is true, is it not?

Col. FISHER. We have really counted on somewhat more in this country. Ordinarily we have provided for about 8 per cent in this country, and, as I understood it, we felt we would need 20 or 25 per cent abroad and 10 per cent in this country, because some of the sick will have to come back here.

Mr. SHERLEY. Then you are estimating on the basis of 10 per cent in America and 25 per cent abroad?

Gen. GORGAS. When I spoke I was thinking of the estimates we made for these camps. Of course, we will have to bring some classes of men back here; for instance, men who are going to be discharged.

Mr. SHERLEY. And your 10 per cent is on the basis of taking care of wounded soldiers who may be returned to this country, and your 3 per cent is your normal percentage for taking care of men within camps and under ordinary conditions here in America?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir. We are perfectly astounded, to be frank, with the way we need to increase our estimates. They are increasing the number of men every time they tell us anything about it. The prices are going up perfectly astoundingly, and we find additional things required that we never dreamed of before, and the estimate we make one month the next month seems insignificant.

Gen. GORGAS. As to those figures, the English actually have 1,000,000 beds and the French 650,000 beds. so the estimates are based upon fairly good knowledge.

Mr. SHERLEY. When you say the English have 1,000,000 beds, you mean 1,000,000 beds, including those that are in England and in France?

Gen. GORGAS. Everywhere; yes, sir.

Col. FISHER. As a matter of fact, I do not believe the sum which we have put down here will cover our needs from the way things begin to look now. The figures are perfectly appalling, and they mount up from day to day with the additional demands. This is a very conservative estimate. The prices have gone up since the estimate was made, and I begin to doubt now, even with this appalling figure, whether we can do the things that will be required of the medical department for even the Army we will have. The last thing I was told before I left the office was that, from an estimate which was being made, it would cost $8,000,000 just for automobile tires. and we have only put down $6,000,000 for the entire purchase of automobiles and spare parts and accessories. I am appalled by the way estimates go, the increasing prices, and the growing need for things.