Mr. SHERLEY. Irrespective of the actual number of men in the Army?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

In arriving at the detailed costs in the appropriation Army transportation, so far as the transportation of troops, their impedimenta, recruits, civilian employees, and supplies are concerned, our quartermasters issue bills of lading and transportation requests, forwarding a copy of same to the designated settling officer who monthly abstracts these and reports the cost to the Quartermaster General. The Quartermaster General's office consolidates all of these reports quarterly and keeps a quarterly record of the expenditures incurred for transportation purposes.

TRANSPORTATION OF CLOTHING AND OTHER QUARTERMASTER SUPPLIES.

Mr. SHERLEY. Your next item is for transportation of clothing and other quartermaster supplies, engineer stores, medical stores, signal stores, and other property from Army posts and depots or places of purchase or delivery to the several posts and Army depots and from those posts and depots to troops in the field, for which you estimate $5,259,890. How much of the previous appropriations were allotted for this purpose?

Capt. DALY. $46,424,950.

Mr. SHERLEY. Are you able to state approximately how much of that has been obligated?

Capt. DALY. I should say that at least 30 per cent of that has been obligated to date, and that another 30 per cent will be obligated within the next three months.

Mr. SHERLEY. This is a railroad transportation item?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Practically all of it goes to the railroads?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. A little may go by water carriers?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It is all meant for railroad and water transportation within the United States?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You buy this material without the delivery cost added at all?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir. Our contracts provide for delivery at the designated depots. The designated depot reships to the organization or to the port of embarkation or to the cantonment.

Mr. SHERLEY. Do you ship at all direct from the place of purchase to the place of use?

Gen. SHARPE. We do. As to the question of clothing, the inspections are now made at the factory as far as possible, so as to expedite the distribution of the clothing. Heretofore the inspections were made at the different depots. All of the cloth which we now buy is inspected at the factories and shipped from there to the manufac turers who are to make it into garments. Shoes are shipped direct to the various depots, to the nearest point of distribution. Of course. the cloth being made into garments has to be shipped from the factories where we have inspections to the different depots where it is to be used. There is a little more freight now in this method than

we ever had before, but we have to do that in order to expedite the delivery of the goods.

You

Mr. SHERLEY. You will shortly have 16 cantonments, in which you are going to have gathered approximately 500,000 men. are going to have warehouses at these cantonments. Will they receive direct supplies for the men from the source at which they were manufactured or will shipments be made to existing depots and reshipment made to the cantonment depots?

Gen. SHARPE. Made to the depots and reshipment made from there. Mr. SHERLEY. Why?

Gen. SHARPE. So as to have the articles in the depots in the sizes which are required. Take shoes alone. There are 90 different sizes of shoes. We can not possibly have all the different sizes at every post. You can have the sizes in the depots, and they will fill the requisitions. It would require 25 per cent addition to the stock in order to have those sizes.

Mr. SHERLEY. Why is it not practicable? There is a certain percentage of sizes of shoes that will be needed at each of these cantonments. Why could not that percentage be shipped direct and the requisitions be made for the other ones from your depots-or is that impracticable?

Gen. SHARPE. I do not think it is. Then you would disturb the whole question of supply for those camps and you would have them calling on several different points of supply, instead of one, for the filling of their requisitions.

Mr. SHERLEY. No: what I had in mind was this: Instead of a cantonment calling upon the Philadelphia depot

Gen. SHARPE (interposing). Not the Philadelphia depot. The cantonment will call on the depot which is in its territory.

Mr. SHERLEY. I was presuming that some cantonment was in this territory. Instead of calling upon Philadelphia for all of its supplies, suppose a part of those supplies was shipped direct from their place of manufacture and then the additional ones were shipped from the Philadelphia depot, would not that be practicable?

Gen. SHARPE. We are speaking now of clothing. There are large quantities of supplies, like subsistence and forage, where the question of size does not come in. They are sent from the nearest point of supply to the point of consumption; there is no intermediate place.

Mr. SHERLEY. Everything except what might be spoken of as the personal equipment of the soldier in the way of clothing and shoes, etc., will go direct from where it is manufactured to the place of use?

Gen. SHARPE. It will go from the point of purchase.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is what I mean-from the point of purchase? Gen. SHARPE. Yes, sir; the purpose being to eliminate all unnecessary handling and shipment.

Mr. SHERLEY. When you make such contracts do you make them for delivery at various points?

Gen. SHARPE. Wherever the articles are inspected. The law requires that these articles must be inspected on delivery. We have the inspection on delivery, and then after acceptance in that way they become Government property, and shipment is then made on Government bill of lading.

Mr. SHERLEY. Here is what I mean: You are going to buy a certain number of wagons. Now, wagons will be used at every place where soldiers are assembled. Now, will your contract provide for the purchase of the wagons with transportation to those various points or will they be for the cost of the wagon at the place of manufacture and then you bear the expense of transportation?

Gen. SHARPE. Capt. Fair, can explain that. That is under an arrangement made by the Council of National Defense. We have taken the matter up in connection with the wagon supply and the materials for making the wheels, etc., with the Ordnance Department.

Capt. FAIR. The wagons are purchased and the price contemplates delivery at the place of manufacture to our inspectors. The price is one that was arranged with the wagon manufacturers after receiving competitive bids, and then deciding on an average price, the price of steel and wood being taken into consideration. Then we take the delivery of those wagons at the point of manufacture after inspection and ship them on Government bill of lading from point of delivery to such places as we want them.

Gen. SHARPE. The wagon question is a very complicated one. We have to get the lumber which is out in the forest now and then it has to be kiln dried.

Mr. SHERLEY. We will probably come to that when we strike that particular item. I just cited that as an instance of method in connection with transportation. Now, you allotted out of your previous appropriation $46,424,950 for the transportation of clothing and other quartermaster supplies, and you figure that 30 per cent of that has probably been obligated already.

Gen. SHARPE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You are now asking out of this new estimate $5,259,890. On what basis did you arrive at these totals?

Capt. DALY. We took the quantity of each class of stores in tons which it was estimated would be required by the forces to be organized and considering the tariff rates on the various classifications that gave us a total of $51,684,840 as being required for the year to meet the freight needs of the troops.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, here is what I do not quite understand: In making your original estimates you figured $46,500,000 in round figures for this purpose on the theory of 1,000,000 men that were going to be supplied. Now you figure on the basis of over 2,000,000 and only add for this purpose a little over $5.000.000. Now, that would indicate either that your present estimate is wrong, or what is very much more likely, that your original estimate when you submitted your previous deficiency estimates, was greatly in excess of the need for the million men you were then figuring on?

Capt. DALY. No; because in the first instance you must first consider the initial stock, and that is large in itself. That must be supplied to the various depots and they carry from three months' to nine months' stock, and thereafter it is just a question of replenishing that stock.

Mr. SHERLEY. But that will not hold as to a great many things. For instance, take clothing. You figure on clothing for 1,000,000 men. Now, that was more or less a fixed quantity. You are now figuring on clothing for 2,033,000, more than twice as many. Now, if the transportation of the clothing for 1.000.000 men represented

your old figure, the transportation for clothing for 2,000,000 men is going to represent very much more than your new figure.

Capt. DALY. I will have to get the details of that estimate. I am not familiar with how it was arrived at. For example, take clothing and equipage. It appears that the branch that handles that figured 141,145 tons total to be shipped of clothing and equipage.

Mr. SHERLEY. Was that on your first estimate or your new estimate?

Capt. DALY. On the first estimate.

Mr. SHERLEY. What do they figure now?

Capt. DALY. They have not changed it.

Mr. SHERLEY. Then it is perfectly evident that the first time they figured, they figured too much for 1,000,000 men, if it is going to be enough now for 2,000,000 men.

Capt. DALY. Yes; the total of their figures would indicate that only $51,684,000 is required for this whole number of 2,033,000

men.

Mr. SHERLEY. Whereas when they were figuring for 1,000,000 men they figured $46,500,000.

Capt. DALY. Yes; $46,424,000 was allotted for that purpose.

Mr. SHERLEY. And these payments are on the same basis as the others the regular tariff for freight less the land-grant reduction?

Capt. DALY. Yes; less the land-grant deduction or the equalization on the part of the railroads that are not land-grant roads. There is no special reduction for this freight at all.

Mr. SHERLEY. You only get the special reduction of 5 per cent on passenger traffic?

Capt. DALY. That is all.

Mr. SHERLEY. What is the total quantity in weight that is figured to be moved for this $52,000,000?

Capt. DALY. The total tonnage we estimated would be moved under this $51,684,000, consisting of clothing and equipment, subsistence stores, forage, motor vehicles, and other quartermaster supplies and we mean by that such things as camp equipment, buckets, rakes, shovels, horseshoes, etc., medical stores, signal stores, and engineer stores-is 7,296,055 tons.

TRANSPORTATION OF HORSE EQUIPMENT, OF ORDNANCE AND ORDNANCE STORES.

Mr. SHERLEY. Your next item is for the transportation of horse equipment, of ordnance and ordnance stores, and small arms from the foundries and armories and places of purchase to the arsenals. fortifications, military posts, and Army depots. How much of the previous appropriation was allotted for this purpose?

Capt. DALY. $5,411,840.

Mr. SHERLEY. You are now asking an additional amount of $1,082,370?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. This, again. is practically railroad freight transportation?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And a little incidental water transportation in-ide the United States?

4400--17-29

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir. It is based on an estimate from the Ordnance Department. They estimated 649,421 tons.

Mr. SHERLEY. What did they estimate in the first instance when you made your first estimate?

Capt. DALY. I have not that figure here. They had a different estimate, as I remember it, and later they added to it.

Mr. SHERLEY. There, again, for 1,000,000 men you were figuring five times as much originally as you are now figuring for the additional million men?

Capt. DALY. They figured that. Of course, I do not know what they included in that.

Mr. SHERLEY. In the estimate that was submitted before the Committee on Military Affairs for this item it was estimated that only $1,183,840 would be needed.

Capt. DALY. That was a peace estimate.

Mr. SHERLEY. No; that was the estimate that was made in connection with the $3,000,000,000 lump-sum appropriation which was asked for.

Capt. DALY. Did the Quartermaster General testify to that?

Mr. SHERLEY. Nobody testified to it, but there was submitted by Lieut. Col. Baker, of the Quartermaster Corps, a detailed statement, which Maj. Pierce, as I recall, presented to the Military Affairs Committee. Now, perhaps I have come to the real explanation of what has happened. Instead of these allotments you have made out of your previous appropriation of $236,000,000 or $237,000,000 being what was originally estimated, they were allotments made subsequently, with the knowledge that you were going to supply equipment for 2,000,000 instead of 1,000,000 men, and have now been revised and added to with the knowledge that has come to you subsequently?

Capt. DALY. I am not so sure about that, Mr. Sherley. We will have to inquire into that, because I do not think when they made these allotments-I am not stating this as a fact we knew of the 2,000,000 men.

Mr. SHERLEY. For instance, I find in the item that we previously discussed, where you had an allotment made of $46,500,000, that the figures submitted by Col. Baker were $18,000,000. When were these present allotments made?

Capt. DALY. I think they were made in June of this year.

Mr. SHERLEY. Were they made at the same time that this new estimate was figured on?

Capt. DALY. No; the new estimate was not figured on until July 8. Mr. SHERLEY. So you made the allotment of your available funds in June?

Capt. DALY. After the appropriation in the urgent deficiency bill became effective.

Mr. SHERLEY. And then in July you made your new estimate, having in mind those old allotments?

Capt. DALY. Yes. These new allotments, when they were made by the Quartermaster General, to the branches or divisions of the office from the totals of the urgent deficiency appropriation plus the Army appropriation for 1918 were based on figures that were evidently submitted by the different branches. The branches gave an estimate of what they would require and the allotments were then