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The CHAIRMAN. Have you with you a statement, or are you able to make a statement, of what it is believed the organization should be as a result of the proposed new program?

Col. GIBBS. The program as submitted contemplated a force of 700 clerks, which would require $800,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That was not included here?

Mr. SCOFIELD. Yes; that was included in this.

Col. GIBBS. That was made up at a time when we anticipated that the building program would involve some $63,000,000; but now that it will involve $639,000,000, if it does, we will probably require more clerks. But I believe, and was so told in the office before I started down here, that the expansion to 700 would probably be all that we could accomplish under the circumstances between now and the end of December, at any rate, and it is doubtful if we could expand even to that extent. So that if funds for 700 clerks are provided it will probably represent all of the expansion that we will be able to undertake in that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Was this estimate based upon the appropriation made in the previous emergency deficiency bill?

Col. GIBBS. This number, 700, represents the total number that will be required in the office.

The CHAIRMAN. Based on the appropriations recently made for airplanes, or was it based on the contemplated additional appropriations that is, appropriations over those already made?

Col. GIBBS. If I understand you

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Congress, in the regular military bill and in the emergency war bill, appropriated for the airplane service. Now, is this estimate based upon the needs of the Signal Office because of those appropriations or based upon the expected additional increase?

Cel. GIBBS. It was based upon the expected additional increase in funds for that service to the amount of some $63.000,000.

Mr. GILLETT. How large a force have you now?

Col. GIBBS. We have now about 142 clerks; that is, just clerks and not counting the technical employees at all.

The CHAIRMAN. The legislative bill authorized 20 and you have already obtained about 120 additional?

Col. GIBBS. We have 142 all together in the office. We have a lump sum roll new amounting to $53,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That is out of the appropriations already made? Col. GIBBS. Yes; and if that sum were increased to $800,000The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Can you state the positions and compensation of the persons on that roll?

Col. GIBBS. Only this, that any clerical force will have to be a balanced force; we will have to have chiefs of divisions and experienced clerks who can direct the work of the other clerks.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean, as far as you have gone, have you that information?

Col. GIBBS. Only in a general way.

The CHAIRMAN. As far as the signal office is concerned its ability to expand would not be any more than the provision made in this particular appropriation?

Col. GIBBS. That is believed to be true; yes, sir. That is for the present; of course, what the needs of this air service are going to bring us to in the expansion no man can anticipate very closely.

The CHAIRMAN. The opinion of the office is that the expansion here proposed is as large an expansion as would be possible between now and the time when there will be an opportunity to submit further requests?

Col. GIBBS. Yes, sir; that is the opinion of the office.

The CHAIRMAN. The technical employees are not included in that paragraph?

Col. GIBBS. No, sir; these are just clerks.

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever employees of that character are required will be

Cel. GIBBS (interposing). The technical employees are paid out of the funds appropriated for the technical service.

The CHAIRMAN. Do these 700 clerks include your draftsmen?

Col. GIBBS. No draftsmen; they are all clerks. Draftsmen are technical employees.

The CHAIRMAN. You will need more men in Washington, will you not?

Col. GIBBS. Some additional draftsmen, inspectors, and other technical employees will be required, but they will come within the total of $800,000, if that amount is provided.

MONDAY, JULY 16, 1917.

OFFICE OF THE QUARTERMASTER GENERAL.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. CHARLES P. DALY.

TEMPORARY CLERKS.

The CHAIRMAN. You have asked for what?

Capt. DALY. Seven hundred and eighty-five additional clerks. The CHAIRMAN. To cost?

Capt. DALY. $981,280.

The CHAIRMAN. How many have you in your permanent establishment?

Capt. DALY. Two hundred and sixty-four clerks in the permanent establishment. The additional force is based on a rate of $1,200. The CHAIRMAN. That is the average rate?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir; we can not get suitable men at $1,000.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the maximum?

Capt. DALY. $1,200; there are no promotions figured in this.
The CHAIRMAN. You figure $1,200-

Capt. DALY (interposing). For the 785.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you base your estimate on?

Capt. DALY. Well, on the volume of the increase of work to begin with. You see, the work has increased up to date, quadrupled, as a

matter of fact. Take incoming mail, for example. In March the total incoming mail was 28,760 pieces, as I remember it; that is correspondence, and I do not refer now to returns and money vouchers and things of that kind, but just correspondence. In June the total correspondence was 65,000; in July, up to date, it is 44,000, and that is for the first 15 days of July. In addition to that the number of returns and the number of money accounts has increased at least four times. Considering the number of men required to perform the work under normal conditions the 785 asked for will about work it out. That does not contemplate 74 hours a day.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it contemplate?

Capt. DALY. It contemplates about 12 or 14 hours, as that is the number of actual hours they are putting in.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they working more than 7 hours a day now? Capt. DALY. Some of them.

The CHAIRMAN. What proportion are working more than 74 hours a day?

Capt. DALY. Quite a large proportion, and nearly all of the men in charge of the clerks, men who have charge of the work; I do not mean officers, but I mean clerks who have charge of the different sections of the work in the office are putting in 12 or 14 hours, and some of the clerks under them. In some cases we have night shifts, of course, eight-hour shifts.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, you are working in two shifts?

Capt. DALY. Yes; in some cases we can do that, but we can not do it throughout the office; we can not do it where we have to handle administrative work, but we can do it in the examination of accounts and the examination of property returns.

Mr. SCOFIELD. The Adjutant General is also working in two shifts in some of his divisions.

Mr. CANNON. The new clerks you propose, in the aggregate, will cost $1,200 apiece?

Capt. DALY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. You will promote from your present force those who deserve promotion, and then even up from among the $1,200 clerks, paying some $800 and some $900?

Capt. DALY. Well, we will probably get some at $1,000, but no less than $1,000.

Mr. CANNON. And you will use between that and the $1,200 for promotions in your present force?

Capt. DALY. Yes; if it is the policy to promote; but I do not think we have considered promotions in this estimate. I think the Quartermaster General's office has made all the promotions they intend to make.

Mr. CANNON. Then there will be none over $1,200 in this new force?

Capt. DALY. I think not, sir, unless something comes up that warrants a change, but as far as I know now I think not.

MONDAY, JULY 16, 1917.

OFFICE OF THE SURGEON GENERAL.

STATEMENTS OF COL. HENRY C. FISHER AND MR. B. B. THOMPSON, CHIEF CLERK.

TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES,

Col. FISHER. Gen. Gorgas was unable to appear, and he asked me to come in his stead. Mr. Thompson, the chief clerk, is also here, and as he knows all about the details I will ask him to answer your questions.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking what for the Surgeon General's office?

Mr. THOMPSON. The scheme that was laid before the Secretary some weeks ago contemplated an aggregate emergency force of 272 people, costing $290.116. I think, however, that Gen. Gorgas, in submitting those figures, did not understand that it was a formal estimate: that it was more in the nature of a conjecture.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean that is too many?

Mr. THOMPSON. Scarcely, sir. At the present time we have on the emergency roll an aggregate of 214 people, including the messenger and labor force, which would make an annual pay roll of $219,000. We immediately need, according to the estimates of the various sections and divisions of the office, 98 more people-2 clerks at $1.600, experts in accounting; 90 at the flat rate of $1,000; one laborer at $660; and 5 messengers at $720-and things are changing so from day to day that the Surgeon General feels that he will likely need before the end of this fiscal year 100 clerks in addition to that. Of course, that is more or less of a conjecture, but the immediate need now is for 98 more people than the present force of 214, which would bring it considerably above the figures of 272 which are comprised in the estimates now before the committee.

Mr. SCOFIELD. May I add that the present force, instead of being 214 is 266: that is to say, he has 214 on the roll, but the difference between 214 and 266 have been appointed and are on the way for duty. Mr. GILLETT. How many did you have before the war?

Mr. THOMPSON. The clerical force before the war was 115. That does not include the laborer, messenger, and mechanical force emploved in the museum building.

Mr. GILLETT. So you have already added about 100?

Mr. THOMPSON. We have added 214, but that is only the emergency roll: that is in addition to the old roll.

The CHAIRMAN. A considerable portion of the work that would naturally fall on the Surgeon General's office is done in the Red Cross office, is it not?

Mr. THOMPSON. I would hardly like to state it that way, Mr. Chair

man.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand what I mean, so tell it in the way you want to tell it.

Mr. THOMPSON. They have certain activities of their own which are, after they reach a certain definite shape, adopted by the Surgeon General.

The CHAIRMAN. They have been in charge of a great deal of the preliminary work in the organization of base hospitals, have they not?

Col. FISHER. They have organized a certain number of base hospitals and have been of a great deal of assistance in turning them over to the Surgeon General, but as soon as they turn them over to the Surgeon General his office takes entire charge of them and the Red Cross has nothing more to do with them.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this preliminary work by the Red Cross performed by employees of the War Department?

Col. FISHER. No.

The CHAIRMAN. So that a considerable amount of work that would necessarily be done in the Surgeon General's office is done outside of it.

Col. FISHER. The work of the organization of those Red Cross units has been done by the Red Cross outside of the Surgeon General's office, but as soon as they are turned over to the Army the Surgeon General's office takes charge.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean, the preliminary work in connection with organization is taken off of the Surgeon General's office?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What I wanted to find out was whether we furnished the clerical assistance required in that work?

Col. FISHER. Not at all; but if they are taken over by the Government, then we do.

Mr. CANNON. They do much of the work, then, for the benefit of the Government, as represented in your department?

Col. FISHER. Oh, yes, sir; a great deal.

The CHAIRMAN. What I wanted to develop, Colonel, was that this force now asked for is for werk outside of that preliminary work in connection with the organization of these units?"

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. While it has been done by the Red Cross it has really been in charge of an officer of the Surgeon General's office? Cel. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But the clerical services were not furnished out of the Surgeon General's appropriations?

Col. FISHER. No.

The CHAIRMAN. But that work was done in that way?

Cel. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And these requests are for employees required in the oflice of the Surgeon General in connection with the work directly done by that office?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. In making up this estimate was an average compensation stated or was the detailed organization worked out?

Mr. THOMPSON. There was a detailed statement submitted at the time this aggregate of two hundred and ninety thousand and odd dollars was computed for the 272, which is in the hands of the Secretary.

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