when compared with what it was a few years ago. The profit was Gen. CROZIER. The normal cost was greater than any of the arsenal costs that we have encountered in the past. The CHAIRMAN. I did not mean that; I meant what you estimate them to be now. Gen. CROZIER. That normal cost was pretty close to our arsenal costs, as I remember it; but I am not quite certain about that. We took everything into consideration, and, of course, our best information would come from the arsenal, or, at least, it ought to come from the arsenal. Mr. SHERLEY. What output is this going to give you? Gen. CROZIER. It will be sufficient to fully meet the anticipated demands and leave no shortage at any time, either for training or for use in the field. Mr. SHERLEY. For a million men? Gen. CROZIER. Yes. Mr. SHERLEY. Is that also going to apply to ammunition for machine guns? Gen. CROZIER. Yes. Mr. SHERLEY. You will remember that I spoke to you informally some time ago about a statement I had heard to the effect that arsenals were having difficulty in making proper primers. What is the fact as to Government manufacture? Are you having any difficulty in turning out satisfactory cartridges? Gen. CROZIER. No; we are having no difficulty. Well, I ought not to say that. We are always having difficulties; it is a troublesome matter and something is always trying to go wrong about it, and every once in a while succeeds. Then it means that there is time and effort wasted, and, perhaps, something has to be scrapped when we get back on the track again. But there is just now nothing that is sufficiently troublesome to come to my attention. Mr. SHERLEY. It is not true, then, that you have in any serious way had your output stopped or lessened from the Government factories by virtue of manufacturing difficulties? Gen. CROZIER. No. Mr. SHERLEY. Have there been any rejections of any moment in connection with the cartridges, in particular their inability to fire when used in machine guns? Gen. CROZIER. None sufficient to cause us anxiety. Cartridges for machine guns have to exhibit a degree of excellency and, particularly, a degree of uniformity, which is not necessary in cartridges which 1 are fired from rifles, although we try to fire the same cartridges from both, and generally do. In starting our new contracts we have endeavored to perfect the specifications so that the requirements of them will insure ammunition which will be perfectly usable in machine guns, and in doing so some of the manufacturers claim that we have made specifications that we have not manufactured to ourselves; in other words, that our own manufacture has not come up to those specifications, and in some cases that might be true. But there is no general difficulty and no general complaint from the service about the unsatisfactory character of the ammunition, and there is nothing to cause us any apprehension that our ammunition. will not be supplied sufficiently promptly because of rejections due to poor manufacture. Mr. SHERLEY. Are the cartridges that you are getting from these private concerns deemed satisfactory? Gen. CROZIER. We have not gotten very many so far, and we run against this difficulty: We require that a certain number of them shall be fired in all the different kinds of machine guns that we use, but at first we were so short of machine guns with which to arm the troops that we found it difficult to furnish machine guns in sufficient numbers to enable the contractors to make these tests. Under those circumstances I sometimes allowed them to deliver ammunition without at test in machine guns, being satisfied with the tests in the rifles; but I directed that if any ammunition had to be tested in that way, without having been tested in the machine guns, it should be specially marked "not to be used in machine guns." The reason I did that was because the manufacture had to proceed or else the work had to be stopped and the hands had to be let go, which would be an unfortunate thing at such a time, and it would break up the organization. But most of these people now have machine guns; I think they all have machine guns of some kinds, although not all kinds that we expect to use, so that the tests in machine guns are really now going on. I think they all have three kinds of machine guns now. Mr. SHERLEY. You now have with these seven plants and your Government plant sufficient capacity for all prospective needs? Gen. CROZIER. Yes. Of course it would be very bad luck, indeed, if they should all fall down on something so important. Mr. SHERLEY. Are you making this ammunition anywhere except at Frankford? Gen. CROZIER. Not in a Government factory. That is the only Government factory we have. SMALL-ARMS TARGET PRACTICE GRENADES AND BOMBS. The CHAIRMAN. The next item is small-arms target practice, for which you had $19,500,000, and you are asking for $2,000,000 additional. Gen. CROZIER. This relates to the same subject as the preceding item; that is to say, it is for practice with grenades and bombs and not for practice with the rifles. In the appropriation that was made in the Army act of May 12 there was included a sum of $100,000 for this kind of practice, but it is considered now that that is not nearly enough and that we need enough to bring the whole sum up to about $2,075,000, leaving remaining to be appropriated $1,975,000, which I have called $2,000,000. It is for practice in the use of the material that the preceding item of appropriation is intended to procure. The CHAIRMAN. These hand grenades and bombs are not loaded when used in practice? Gen. CROZIER. Some of them are not, but they carry on a great deal of practice in the European armies with loaded grenades. They are dangerous little things. As they are constructed and ordinarily handled for transportation they usually have a little pin stuck through in some place that holds the plunger, and as long as that pin is in there they are supposed not to go off, even if you should drop them accidentally or in an attempt to throw them if you should hit the top of your own parapet. With that pin in them they will not explode, even under those circumstances. Before a man throws one of these things he is supposed to pull that pin out, but if he does the wrong thing with it it is likely to go off. I have spoken so far of the kind that we call percussion grenades. That is to say, the ones that go off upon striking. There is another kind, called time grenades, in which there is a little time fuse set going by something that a man does before he throws it; then he throws it, and it goes off after a certain length of time. If he holds it too long in his hands it is likely to go off there or go off just as it leaves his hand. So that all of those things have to be carefully looked out for, and men have to be trained in the use of them, and they can not get complete and satisfactory training without using what we call live grenades, the actual thing. Some of them are so designed that the act of throwing will place them in a condition to go off just as they land, or you may even start the time train going just by the mere act of throwing. The CHAIRMAN. The previous appropriation, then, has been expended, or is being expended, to obtain the material for the smallarms and machine-gun practice? Gen CROZIER. Principally for rifle and machine-gun practice. ORDNANCE STORES AND SUPPLIES. The CHAIRMAN. The next item is ordnance stores and supplies. You had $116,550,000, and you are asking for $70,000,000 additional. Gen. CROZIER. There are some half dozen general reasons for that addition. In the first place, they were not sufficiently estimated for before. The subject of individual armor was not covered properlytrench helmets, for instance, and to a certain extent body armor. Body armor shields are used to some extent, although not very greatly. Those two things together, trench helmets and other individual armor, call for about $10,400,000 of $70,000,000 for which I am asking. The personal equipment which was included in the former appropriation will cost more for labor and material than estimated. It was thought that a set of equipment at the time we submitted those estimates would cost about $13, whereas the present estimated cost is about $20; so to make up for that increased cost for the equipment of about 1,000,000 men, which has to be replaced two or three times a year, I am estimating now $27,600,000. There are certain cleaning and preserving materials that we have to issue which have increased in cost approximately 50 per cent since the last estimate was sub mitted, and this increased cost will call for about $540,000. Similarly there has been about the same percentage of increase in the cost. of saddlers' materials, which are purchased from this appropriation, which will give rise to a necessity for about $1,100,000, and a similar amount, $1,100,000, is estimated because of the same approximate increase in the cost, 50 per cent, of labor for overhauling and caring for ordnance stores and supplies. For machines and appliances as well as material, everything necessary for gas warfare, for which nothing was estimated, I estimate now $2,000,000; for harness for some 600 batteries of field artillery and for their maintenance for half a year I estimate $12,760,000. For a class of material which is used in trench warfare, but which I have not mentioned separately so far, illuminating grenades, rockets, signal lights, smoke torches,. etc., and chemical apparatus of different kinds, I estimate $4,500,000 and for miscellaneous items not specially specified $10,000,000. All of which items together make up the $70,000,000 of the estimate. The CHAIRMAN. How long a supply will this furnish? Gen. CROZIER. It will last during this fiscal year. The CHAIRMAN. It is expected that all of the moneys appropriated. and requested will be spent during the present fiscal year? Gen. CROZIER. All of this can be and all of this ought to be. Mr. SHERLEY. All of these new matters that you are indicating were in use, were they not, and known to be so at the time you submitted your original estimates? Gen. CROZIER. About $30,000,000 of this $70,000,000 is occasioned by increased costs. I have not made any special estimate for ma-chines and appliances for gas warfare, but we put it in now. Mr. SHERLEY. Do you expect to have those made in America? Gen. CROZIER. We will get some here, yes; it will depend some-what on whether we will be able to evolve something better than anything else. Gas warfare is so new that everything in connection. with it is very progressive. There are two different kinds of apparatus used. One is for the purpose of producing gas waves and the other for producing asphyxiation through the bursting of the shell. There are two kinds, the gas wave and the gas shell. The gas shell is simply an ordinary shell, usually with an ordinary fuse and filled with a liquid which turns into gas on the explosion of the shell. Those shells we will undoubtedly make in this country, the greater number, and probably we will supply what goes into them. They may not be loaded on this side; they may not be loaded until they get to the other side. Mr. SHERLEY. These are very rough estimates? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; they have to be. Mr. SHERLEY. You do not know the character of machine which will be made? Gen. CROZIER. No, sir. Mr. SHERLEY. You do not know whether you are arriving at any real judgment as to the moneys that will be expended? Gen. CROZIER. Exactly, and even if we had a machine which we were using to-day, anything new, the probability is it would be out-built in six months and we would have to make another one. Mr. SHERLEY. Do you expect to spend this money inside of this fiscal year? 4400-17-47 Gen. CROZIER. There is no reason why we should not in this class of thing, because these things are not all such as require very elaborate and extensive plants to make them. It should be possible to expend the money. Some of these things, you understand, Mr. Sherley, we have bought from our allies-some of these helmets. We bought quite a number-200,000. Everybody at the front or anywhere near the front has to wear a helmet. We will need many more than 200,000. That enabled us to get a start and make quite an expenditure. The CHAIRMAN. What are the helmets a protection against? Gen. CROZIER. Usually against shrapnel bullets. A shrapnel bullet is a round lead bullet that comes from the bursting of the shell. It does not fly with any great velocity. The helmet is very important. The CHAIRMAN. Will the helmet turn one of those bullets? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. If a rifle bullet strikes it at a pretty sharp angle, it will turn that, too. The CHAIRMAN. Have they been found to be a good deal of protection? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. The number of head wounds in the hospitals has diminished very considerably since they were introduced. There are many trench helmets. There have been a lot over here as souvenirs and samples in which there were dents which had been made by bullets which would have probably killed the man or badly wounded him if he had not had the helmet on. The experience with them has been such that nobody is allowed anywhere near the front without wearing one of these helmets-officers, men, and everybody. The CHAIRMAN. When were they introduced-very early in the war? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; in 1915, I think. I do not think they had any of them in 1914. The CHAIRMAN. They have to wear something under them? Gen. CROZIER. They usually have a sort of rim around on the inside, and sometimes there are little rubber washers between that rim and the metal of the helmet, so as to afford a kind of cushion when a bullet or a shell fragment strikes the helmet. The ordinary leather which is put around the inside of your hat is not attached directly to the steel, but there is some cushioned material between. SATURDAY, AUGUST 4, 1917. TERMS OF CONTRACTS. (See p. 717.) Gen. CROZIER. You asked yesterday about the terms of some of these contracts, and you will remember I said that there was a normal cost of $50 for small-arms ammunition, and that it was to be affected by the prices of raw materials-copper, zinc, lead, and powder. That $50 price was based on a price of 28 cents for copper, 16 cents for zinc, 8 cents for lead, and 62 cents for powder. For each variation of 1 cent in the cost of copper the price of the ammunition |