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upon mobilization, and which was not provided for under the estimates under the Treat Board scheme in the 25 per cent added for replacing batteries and in increased motorization.

Mr. SHERLEY. If I understand you, you do not mean that half of the guns that are being supplied are to be for the benefit of the recruit battalions and the base depots?

Gen. CROZIER. The scheme is for one-third.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that only half of your guns go to the front in the first instance?

Gen. CROZIER. No; two-thirds go to the front. We supply for these training purposes one-half of what go to the front.

Mr. SHERLEY. I misunderstood you. Then it is that 50 per cent increase over the Treat Board scheme that, of course, accounts for the major portion of the increase in cost?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; that would account for a good deal of it.

Mr. SHERLEY. And the rest is due to the change in calibers and to increased cost of manufacture?

Gen. CROZIER. And to increased motorization and to the substitution of motor traction for horses, the horses not having before been carried in this bill. It is really a saving, because we save more in horses than we pay in motor traction, but it does not appear in this appropriation.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, does this scheme as now presented contemplate as large a proportion of field artillery to rifles and sabers as is being used by the English and the French?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; it contemplates the proportion which is used by the French, which is not very different from that which is used by the English.

In addition to these pieces, which you will see stop at the 94-inch howitzer-nothing larger than that being spoken of-there are other and larger pieces used in this war, which are mounted sometimes on tractor mounts and sometimes on railway mounts, comprising from the 6-inch gun up to the 12 or 14 inch gun or even the 20-inch howitzer, of which a few have been made. These pieces are not assigned to any organization. All of those which I have been speaking to you about before are assigned to organizations, to certain divisions, or to certain army corps. These constitute a general reserve and are kept independent of any organization and sent to any place where they are contemplating a particular operation.

We have already given such orders that two of the largest steelmaking establishments in the country are increasing their plants for the purpose of making gun forgings and a third establishment, which is of good size, but which has not heretofore made gun forgings, is also increasing its steel-making capacity, the increment to be devoted to the manufacture of gun forgings. These same two factories which have heretofore made gun forgings have also made the guns complete, and they are increasing their capacity for machining guns as well as for making the gun forgings.

In addition, two other factories which have large machine shops, but which have not heretofore made guns, either the forgings or the finished guns, are increasing their machine-shop capacity for the purpose of machining forgings into guns. That is all that has been concluded in the way of increasing plants.

In addition to that, we have a couple of steel-making plants whose management we are trying to get to accept an order involving the increase of their plants for the purpose of making gun forgings. We have not yet got to the point of having them do it because of the fact that although we have money enough to pay for the plant extensions, we have not money enough to give them large plant occupation thereafter in the way of making forgings in the plant. For the machining of the forgings into finished guns we are also at about the same point with reference to two companies with large machine shops whom we want to increase their machine-shop capacity. That ends a list of the establishments whom we have already set aside money for for enlargement of plants, including both those who have consented to it and are doing it and those who have not yet consented to do it.

In addition, we have two more plants which we would like to set to enlarging themselves for the manufacture of forgings, but for which we have not any money to pay for the enlargement nor to pay for the forgings manufactured there; and there are two more which we would like to set at the task of enlarging their capacity for machining guns and manufacturing them out of forgings furnished them, but for which we have no money to pay for either the enlargement of plant or for the machining of guns therein afterwards.

Thus far I have spoken of the plant necessary to manufacture the artillery for these two forces of 1,000,000 men up to and including the 6-inch howitzer class. I have not mentioned any plant necessary either for manufacturing forgings or for machining forgings into guns of the classes of the 6-inch gun and the 94-inch howitzer, nor have I mentioned plants necessary for repairing and maintaining artillery in the hands of these two forces of 1,000,000 men. These last plants for repairs and maintenance are machining plants and are expected to be established in France. For the manufacture of forgings for the 6-inch gun and the 93-inch howitzer I hope to be able to get the two established gun-forging manufacturing plants in this country whose enlargements were the ones I first spoke about to still further enlarge their plants for this last purpose, and I hope to enlarge the machining plant at the Watervliet Arsenal to machine at least the largest size of the pieces to be assigned to organizations which I have mentioned to you; that is, the 9-inch howitzer.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, as I recall in connection with testimony had in regard to seacoast fortifications as well as mobile artillery. the arsenals of the Government are practically booked with Government orders for 18 months or more; that was some months ago.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that you do not look to them to carry practically any of this load?

Gen. CROZIER. Very little of it. As I am just telling you, however, I contemplate using some of the funds for enlarging the capacity of the Watervliet Arsenal, and I also have an estimate. I think under armories and arsenals, for the enlargement of the Watervliet capacity.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is the only arsenal, as I recall, where the forg. ings for the big guns were made into the guns!

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. We have never made any forgings ourselves for guns of any considerable caliber?

Gen. CROZIER. No.

Mr. SHERLEY. I believe recently you had appropriations looking to the creation of a forging plant and you hoped to make some of the 6-inch guns, but had not been very successful, I believe, in getting your steel forgings?

Gen. CROZIER. That is right. We did not know whether it was due to our, newness to the work or whether the steel billets, which we had to buy, were at fault.

Mr. CANNON. All of this discussion has been in reference to this item of $899,000,000 ?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. What I would like to know is how much of this appropriation-whether all or a part thereof—is for the fiscal year; in other words, how much you want available for payments up to a given point, say, this fiscal year, and how much authority to make contracts you want for the next fiscal year?

Gen. CROZIER. Out of that sum of $899,000,000 I think I will not require more than three-fourths of it for this fiscal year and onefourth of it, or $225,000,000, can go in the form of contract authorization. You see, we are making an effort to get this artillery into existence, or as much of it as we can, by next summer; and, of course, if we get it into existence we must have the money to pay for it, and we are expecting to make the contracts in such a way as to have to pay for it as we go along; that is, pay for it while in the process of manufacture, and pay for the plants as soon as we get them or partially get them.

MONDAY, AUGUST 6, 1917.

ALTHORITY TO PURCHASE MACHINERY FOR OTHER PLACES THAN THE

ARSENAL.

The CHAIRMAN. General, before we take up the second item on page 105 I want to ask you why you drop out the words “at the arsenals.” The provision now reads, and the machinery necessary for their manufacture at the arsenals," and you drop out the words "at the arsenals."

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. Ye have been speaking several times of the necessity for buying machinery for use at other places than the arsenals.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is to make the appropriation available for that purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; it has that effect. We are really proceeding on the belief that the appropriation is available anyway without any change of that language.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not need it, then. Was that change made in order to make it certain that the comptroller would not hold up accounts if you did buy machinery for the arsenals as a part of the manufacturing business?

Gen. CROZIER. I think for that reason it would be a good idea to make certain that he would not hold up accounts even for machinery that we purchased for use elsewhere than at the arsenals.

AMMUNITION FOR MOUNTAIN, FIELD, AND SIEGE CANNON, AND STORAGE

FACILITIES.

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The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, “For purchase, manufacture, and test of ammunition for mountain, field, and siege cannon, including the necessary experiments in connection therewith and the machinery necessary for its manufacture, and the necessary storage facilities, $1,363,000,000." You have had for ammunition $374,000,000, to which should be added $10,000,000 for the National Guard, making $384,000,000 in all.

Gen CROZIER, If you please, Mr. Chairman, I will let Col. Hoffer make the explanation in regard to that ammunition. It is directly under his charge, and he is entirely familiar with it.

Col. HOFFER. Mr. Chairman, the estimates and appropriations to date contemplated the procurement of the initial supply of ammunition for the artillery of 1,000,000 men in accordance with standards that then existed, and, also, of the supply to meet these estimated expenditures during the first year of a war of such portions of that artillery as might get into action.

The appropriations to date under the various fortification acts and Army acts amount to about $416,000,000, which corresponds to the estimates for the ammunition to which I have referred. To meet the revision in the artillery project for 1,000,000 men, to provide the increased expenditures which our latest information gives us, and, also, to provide the initial supply of ammunition for a second 1,000,000 men, will require a sum in excess of the appropriations to date amounting to $1,358,000,000. The remaining $5,000,000 in the estimate is to cover the cost of the rental of buildings and grounds and the construction of temporary buildings, either on Governmentowned or rented grounds, required for the storage of the various components before those components are assembled into complete rounds. The components will be manufactured at different places and will finally be assembled at another point. The quantities ordered are so great and the necessity of keeping well in advance of the output of the assembling plants is such as to render these storage facilities necessary.

The estimated expenditures for the Artillery of the first million men are based upon those troops going to the front at the probable dates to which Gen. Crozier has referred in connection with estimates under the other headings. The entire estimates for this Artillery ammunition is submitted under the fortification bill, as the Yational Guard and National Army are now a part of the national forces.

The recommended changes in the wording of the appropriationfirst, the elimination of the words“ at the arsenals" is for the purpose of covering, so far as the comptroller is concerned, the use, if necessary, of a portion of these funds for payment for machinery for plant extensions of private companies that may be found necessary; and, next, the addition of the words, “and the necessary storage facilities," is to give authorization for the expenditure of a portion of these funds for storage facilities for the components, it being considered that the cost of the storage of these components is a proper charge against the appropriation for the procurement of the ammimition.

The large increase in the amount of ammunition considered necessary is not due to any material change in the initial supply allowance for each cannon, but in the estimate of the ammunition that should be supplied to cover expenditures in action.

The funds appropriated to date have either all been obligated, or will be obligated within a very short time, as the result of negotiations now pending, and the inaugurating of negotiations for further supplies must await additional appropriations by Congress.

In view of the difficulties attending the procurement of raw materials and delays in transportation, the difficulty of obtaining and retaining skilled workmen, and the necessity of the training of so. many new employees as a result of the loss of men due to the raising of the National Army, it is thought that steps ought to be taken at this time to inaugurate, or, at least, to provide the capacity for the ammunition that will be required prior to September 1, 1918, and these estimates are based upon meeting the expected needs up to that date.

While all of the funds needed will be required for the contracts to be entered into, it is thought that $700,000,000 of the amount asked for may be in the form of a contract authorization.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel, I understood you to say that you expected to spend during the present fiscal year four hundred million and some odd dollars, which so far has been appropriated, and $663,000,000 additional.

Col. HOFFER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you the facilities to do that amount of work at present ?

Col. HOFFER. We think so.

The CHAIRMAN. What portion of the money heretofore appropriated is being spent in Government plants, or what percentage of the work is being done in Government plants?

Gen. CROZIER. Very small.

Col. HOFFER. The principal plant, as you know, is the Frankford Arsenal, and the total capacity, or maximum capacity, of that establishment is about 500,000 rounds of the various calibers a year. That, of course, includes procurement from private manufacturers of a number of the components and some partially completed components. That would represent an expenditure at the Frankford Arsenal of approximately $12,000,000, so that from $12,000,000 to $15,000,000 would represent the maximum amount of these appropriations for ammunition that we can possibly expend at ordnance establishments.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not purchase powder out of this money, too?

Col. HOFFER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that cover the expenditure in our powder plants?

Col. HOFFER. The above estimate would include the expenditures at Picatinny Arsenal for powder and explosives, the only Government-owned plant at which these components are manufactured.

The CHAIRMAN. And utilizing the plants to what capacity or on what basis?

Col. HOFFER. Utilizing the capacity of these plants on a full twoshift basis of 10 hours each.

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