Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Goldberger, it is the practice of this committee and also of committees of the Senate in hearings of this type to ask the question as to whether or not the witness is now or ever has been a members of the Communist Party, and I would like to ask you that question.

Mr. GODBERGER. I have never been a member of the Communist Party and I am not now.

Mr. TAVENNER. Do you have a prepared statement?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Yes; I do.

Mr. TAVENNER. Would you care to read it?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I would prefer to.

Mr. TAVENNER. Very well. Proceed.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Thank you.

AMVETS since its inception has been unalterably opposed to communism and Communist agitation in this country.

Article IV of our national constitution specifically provides:

No person who is a member of, or who advocates the principles of, any organization believing in, or working for, the overthrow of the United States Government by force and no person who refuses to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States shall be privileged to become, or continue to be, a member of this organization.

This constitutional provision has always been construed to mean that no person who belongs to the Communist Party or who espouses Communist principles shall be a member of AMVETS.

We believe that what is healthy and good for AMVETS is healthy and good for the country at large; we believe that some form of national proscription against Communists is essential to the well-being of the Nation, too; this belief is based on the firm conviction that no member of the Communist Party can maintain allegiance to the United States of America or can uphold and defend the Constitution of this country so long as he obeys the dictates of the Communist Party, which has demonstrated through scores of its actions that it is taking its orders from a foreign government. We further believe that the American people realize this and are in little danger of being misled if they know in advance that the spokesman is affiliated with the Communist Party.

AMVETS' national commander appeared before the House Committee on Un-American Activities on February 10, 1948, and asked in part that Congress take measures toward controlling the Communists in this country such as:

1. That any person who is a member of the Communist Party or of any organization, association, or other combination of individuals which is dominated, directed, or controlled by the Communist Party to be required to register publicly with the Department of Justice as an agent of a foreign principal;

2. That all publications, papers, and any and all mediums of political propaganda disseminated by such persons or organizations be clearly labeled under the law for what it is; namely, Communist propaganda;

3. That the postal regulations concerning the dissemination of the propaganda described above be drastically tightened to restrict their mailing privileges to first-class mail only;

4. That officers of all subversive groups be made personally responsible for the registration of their groups.

These measures have been substantially incorporated in H. R. 7595. AMVETS supports this bill.

At our last national convention the following resolution was adopted unanimously:

AMVETS urge the enactment of legislation requiring the registration of all Communists, Communist-front organizations, and all other people or groups advocating the overthrow of the United States by force or by subversion.

No Americans have made greater sacrifices to safeguard freedom in America than have the veterans of World War II. Today we continue to jealously guard those freedoms which we successfully defended at such great cost during the recent horrible war.

Many who oppose this bill have said that its provisions endanger our civil liberties-that thought control would result. Careful study of H. R. 7595 should dispel these fears. No part of this legislation restrains any individual or organization from expressing ideas or convictions in any field so long as these beliefs are labeled as beliefs of the Communist Party. How can the sincere defenders of civil liberties in this country fail to rally behind legislation aimed at those organzations or people who would treasonably, with the help of a foreign government, take away these very liberties in question? Let them stand up and be recognized for what they are so that the American people will know whom they represent.

Under section 14 (d) of H. R. 7595 are adequate safeguards for fair hearings before the Subversive Activities Control Board. No innocent parties have cause to be alarmed. Under section 15 our Federal courts continue to stand guard over civil liberties and the right to fair trial of the accused.

(Representative McSweeney enters hearing room.)

Mr. GOLDBERGER (continuing). Americans must awaken to the fact that Communist Russia has overrun more countries since World War II than Hitler's Germany did in precipitating the war. The Communists prefer to attack from within, but the results are the same. It would be a fatal mistake for Americans to fail to defend themselves at home as well as on our frontiers. We urge the immediate passage of H. R. 7595.

Mr. WOOD. The witness, Mr. McSweeney, is Mr. Goldberger, who is national legislative director of AMVETS, and who has just read the prepared statement which is before you.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. I am an ex-serviceman of the last war, and I commend your interest in what we contend is the best peacetime activity in which you could engage. I hope to be a member of your organization at some time.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. We would be very happy to have you with us.
Mr. WOOD. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. MOULDER. No questions.

Mr. WOOD. Mr. Velde.

Mr. VELDE. I notice you haven't commented on H. R. 3903, which is Mr. Wood's bill, and which has for its objective making it unlawful for Federal employees and for individuals employed in connection with national defense contracts to become members of or affiliated with the Communist Party. Do you care to comment on this bill?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I was primarily concerned this morning with H. R. 7595, in view of the fact I received a letter that comments on

this bill would be received. I don't feel at this time I am qualified to comment on the other bills.

Mr. VELDE. In this bill, H. R. 7595, nothing is said about the registration of Nazi or other subversive organizations, but only of the Communist Party.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. That is correct.

Mr. VELDE. Do you have any opinion regarding the feasibility of placing these other organizations in the bill, requiring their registration?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. It appears to me that inasmuch as fascism is equally as dangerous as communism, the bill could be broadened in its terms so as to cover both dangers. I feel that redrafting with that thought in mind would more adequately carry out the purpose of the bill. I think the Congressman's thought is a very good one, and I will be glad to accept that as my opinion.

Mr. VELDE. In other words, the American people have always tried to be fair to all groups, and if we are going to require the registration of one subversive group, we should require the registration of all such groups.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I quite agree with the Congressman. I shall be very happy to accept that thought as my opinion. I feel equally strongly as to both fascism and communism.

Mr. VELDE. The argument has been advanced that legislation of this kind might drive the Communist Party underground, and the answer has been made that the effective part of the Communist Party has been underground for a long time. Have you any comments on that?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Once again the Congressman has answered the question. I think we have not been too successful in combating them underground. I think we should find some means to reasonably control communism through these other groups.

Mr. VELDE. As a matter of fact, it would probably drive them above ground more than underground; it would have that tendency?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Yes; it would tend to drive them above ground. At least it would place them on notice and place the American public on notice. Furthermore, if and when we find it necessary to prosecute, certainly they could not contend at that time that they didn't have notice, and I think it would make the prosecution of such a thing more feasible to handle.

Mr. VELDE. Then, too, I suppose that the opponents of this bill will bring forth the idea that it is an infringement upon the freedom of thought and action and political belief. Do you feel that this bill would be such an infringement?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I don't, and for this reason: I have always felt that our constitutional guaranties as to freedom of expression and other freedoms guaranteed under our Federal Constitution are qualified freedoms. I say qualified in that they are directly relative to the American welfare as a whole. I can't see whereby we would completely uphold any one of those freedoms if it would work a disadvantage or a danger to American society.

I think many of the constitutional interpretations by our United States Supreme Court have held these are qualified privileges and qualified rights, and anything that is reasonable I think is a qualification of those rights. If we arrive at the point where we feel it is

reasonable to the safety of our country to impose certain restrictions, I would say it is not a danger to our constitutional safeguards. As I say, Mr. Congressman, it must all be within reason. As to what is reasonable within reason is a matter of personal opinion, and I doubt if any two individuals in the world will agree on what is reasonable in all instances.

Mr. VELDE. I agree with you.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I think we must abide by the opinion of the majority, because that is our concept in the first instance.

Mr. VELDE. In other words, we might be infringing on the rights of some, but by this legislation we will be protecting the rights of the great majority?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. That is right.

Mr. VELDE. I quite agree with you. That is all.

Mr. WOOD. General Kearney.

Mr. KEARNEY. There has been some testimony concerning political parties. Do you agree with me that the Communist Party is not a political party, but a revolutionary party dedicated to the overthrow of this Government by force and violence?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Yes; I believe that is a fact, plus the additional fact that that movement is directed by a foreign government, and I believe for that reason there should be great control, or some control, at least.

Mr. KEARNEY. Do you further agree with me in my thoughts that it is not only obligatory on our part to prepare ourselves militarily for adequate defense, but also to look after the internal security of the country by legislation such as that on which we are having these hearings?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I definitely do, especially in view of what has taken place in the world in the last 15 years. We have seen movements that have snowballed into catastrophes, and, as I said before, any legislation that is reasonable I think is a very wise precaution.

Mr. KEARNEY. I think you have already answered the question to Mr. Velde that H. R. 7595, after fair scrutiny, is reasonable legislation?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I was particularly impressed with the provisions on the procedural aspects before the Subversive Activities Control Board, the various provisions as to due process, and the provisions as to review of the determination by that Board. I think, in substance, the bill complies with every provision of the Constitution of the United States, and as a lawyer I personally at this time would feel that the provisions are constitutional.

Mr. KEARNEY. Whether it be this particular bill or some similar bill, you believe the time has come, the time is now, for some sort of legislation in order to protect the interests of our country?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Yes, I do; I definitely do. As to the strength of the legislation, that is a matter of opinion, but I definitely feel some means of control in the form of legislation should be enacted.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. In carrying out General Kearney's suggestion, I was interested in your interpretation; we are not opposed to the formation of any party, but we want to have them within the purview of the Constitution. They can have any thoughts they want in connection with an amendment to the Constitution, but a party that goes

beyond that and wants to destroy the Constitution itself then becomes, as I understand the General, a subversive party?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. I think it is firmly established in our American jurisprudence that any effort to change laws of our Nation by peaceful means is lawful, but any effort to change laws of our Nation or our form of government by forceful means is regarded as unlawful.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. I think that distinction is important. There is no objection to any political party as long as it is within the purview of the Constitution.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. That is right. I know there is some law or some decision I have read to the effect that any peaceful means of attempting to change Federal law is perfectly lawful, but when it resorts to force or violence, then, inasmuch as it is an unlawful act, I think the Government should take steps to control that possibility.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. A party could even go so far as to say by regular provisions of our Constitution it could call an assembly to rewrite our Constitution; isn't that true?

Mr. GOLDBERGER. That is correct. I have enough confidence in the American people to feel there would not be the slightest danger there. I think the good judgment of the American people would stabilize any effort to rewrite our Federal Constitution or any other Federal laws. I think any time you have enough Americans together conscientiously interested in a project of that sort, there would be enough stability in the people present to do a good and sound job. Once again we get into the question of what is good and sound, I realize, but I have that confidence in the American people.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. Thank you.

Mr. WOOD. Mr. Goldberger, if your organization, after giving some thought to it, since the committee is also considering other legislation, has any suggestion to make regarding other legislation being considered by the committee, and particularly H. R. 3903, the committee would be very happy to have you submit it in writing in the near future.

Mr. GOLDBERGER. Fine, sir.

Mr. WOOD. And permit me to express the appreciation of the committee for your appearance here and for the comments you have made. Mr. GOLDBERGER. Thank you for the opportunity to be present and to testify.

Mr. TAVENNER. Is Mr. George D. Riley here?

Mr. RILEY Yes.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. George D. Riley is a member of the legislative committee of the American Federation of Labor and is prepared to be heard.

Mr. WOOD. Mr. Riley, we will be very glad to hear you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give the committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. RILEY. I do.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE D. RILEY

Mr. RILEY. Is it the pleasure of the committee that I read this statement?

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes. For the benefit of the record I would like to get your name and position.