And finally, I want to tell you of the individual invitations which you will receive soon to attend the Flag Day observance at the Sylvan Theater under auspices of the Government Employees' Council of the American Federation of Labor. I have the honor to be a cochairman, along with William C. Doherty, vice president of the A. F. of L. It is our earnest desire that everyone who believes as we do will be there June 14, and will stand up and be counted while we give the pledge of allegiance. I hope all of you will make it a date.

Mr. WOOD. Mr. McSweeney, do you have any questions?

Mr. MCSWEENEY. Mr. Riley, I have no right to speak for the committee, but I do believe we are encouraged by the fact that these veteran organizations, together with your splendid organizations of labor groups, are determined that no subversives shall infiltrate into your organizations and undermine the foundations on which you have had such a fine degree of success.

Mr. RILEY. The A. F. of L. went rat chasing some years ago. I don't know how many they found, but they have been chasing them a long time.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. Don't you feel if each of those organizations puts on its own determined campaign to see that no subversives get in, then we will drive them out in the open and they will have to take on their own organization, which we can earmark?

Mr. RILEY. How often we overlook the importance of education. We have had an education bill in Congress for many years which has made no headway. Adult education is important also.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. I served in Italy during the war 3 years, and in talking to once-members of the American Federation of Labor I found the first method used by the Communists in Italy was the infiltration of labor unions in Italy. I hope fraternal organizations and every organization will make its own determined effort to prevent the infiltration of subversives.

Mr. RILEY. I had the honor of being a BPOE for many years, and 25 or 30 years ago I know it was the ritual, and I understand it still is the ritual, the week Flag Day falls there is a considerable to-do about the importance of that flag and the meaning to us. If all organizations would do that, we wouldn't be in this situation today. Mr. WOOD. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. MOULDER. It appears from your statement and the statements I have heard by veteran organizations that there really is no difference in the objective of the organizations to discourage and eliminate subversive activities. Your criticism is directed at the method as proposed by the bill that you have referred to as H. R. 7595?

Mr. RILEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. MOULDER. And particularly the Subversive Activities Control Board. As you express it in your statement, whether an organization is or is not a Communist organization engaged in subversive activities as defined in this bill is a matter for the arbitrary determination of the Board?

Mr. RILEY. That is right.

Mr. MOULDER. And, as I understand your contention, and it certainly is in accord with my belief, before any person or citizen should be deprived of his citizenship rights of freedom or liberty or property, he is entitled to due process of law, and it is a fundamental

right of a citizen to have a trial by jury when anything is in issue involving his rights, liberty, or his property.

Mr. RILEY. This country is strong enough to lick totalitarian methods without legislation. For example, you use the word "agree" in section 4 (a) under the heading "Certain Prohibited Acts" on page 8, beginning at line 10: "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to combine, conspire, or agree with ** **" That is going considerably out of the way to read a person's mind, unless there is some action that goes with that agreeing. The word "agree” if left to stand alone, and it seems to stand alone there, can cover anything. Mr. MOULDER. Is it your opinion that an administrative board is inclined sometimes to become a prosecutor instead of a disinterested or impartial board or body to determine the facts?

Mr. RILEY. That is happening every day in the present Presidential procedure on disloyalty, and it is only the checks and balances of the Richardson Commission-some cases I have knowledge of have come out against the accused, but on review they came out in favor of the accused. You have all had experience with these bureaucratic set-ups. You know what bureaucracy can do. Bureaucracy did it in Italy and Germany and is doing it in many parts of the world today.

There is a bill on which hearings were held down the hall yesterday in the Post Office Committee. It proposes to take out of the job on sight Joe Doaks or anyone else, by bureaucratic fiat, if it is decided in the mind of the bureaucracy that he is a bad security risk. Well, that bill has no counterbalance in it. There is a review procedure where the man who wants to get rid of a person may do so on a review basis. This is an important thing we are doing, dealing with a person's life and limb. We can do violence to ourselves while we are attempting to do violence to our enemy.

You have done a splendid job up to this point. In 1948 you had some pretty strong language, "reasonable doubt" and that sort of thing. What is reasonable doubt? The sky was the limit. It was all a part of the mental process.

Well, I could fulminate the rest of the day, but I know you don't want me to do that. We believe in this sort of thing, too, but there are ways of doing it and ways of not doing it.

Mr. WOOD. Mr. Velde.

Mr. VELDE. We all appreciate the fact that the A. F. of L. and its affiliates are doing everything you can on Americanism to oppose any totalitarian dictatorship, especially communism, in your unions. I don't want to pry into the affairs of your executive council, but can you tell us whether a vote was taken on the Mundt-Nixon bill and the outcome of the vote?

Mr. RILEY. The report of the executive council is headed "MundtNixon Bill," and the very statements and principles I read all appear under that heading. Further along in the book there appears the convention action, and the convention action was unanimous. It must have been voted on or it could not have been unanimous. Mr. VELDE. No one called for a roll call?

Mr. RILEY. I don't think so. My goodness, I don't know how many delegates were present. It was a national convention, and the voting strength is numbered in hundreds of thousands, and, if only one vote was counted for each unit, 160 names would have to be called.

I don't know whether there was a roll call. If you want me to check that, I will.

Mr. VELDE. No, it is not important. I wanted to know how unanimous this action was.

Mr. RILEY. Minutes are kept and the proceedings go into minute detail further along. I was speaking in terms of the report of the executive council plus the action of the convention itself. I will be glad to look it up and see if there was a roll call.

Mr. VELDE. If you have time, I will appreciate it.

Mr. RILEY. I will be glad to do it.

Mr. VELDE. As far as H. R. 7595 is concerned.

Mr. RILEY. That is the one I have been discussing.

Mr. VELDE. I have been discussing the original Mundt-Nixon bill. On this bill have you had an executive council meeting; that is, on H. R. 7595?

Mr. RILEY. This is a new bill, introduced on March 7, 1950. We only have our meetings in the fall. Of course, there are interim executive council meetings quarterly, however the last one started on January 30, before this bill went in.

Mr. VELDE. I had in mind whether or not the things deleted from the original Mundt-Nixon bill might change the opinion of the executive council of the A. F. of L.

Mr. RILEY. It certainly moderated the opinion on it, but it will be the last of April or first of May before there is another executive council meeting. If you can wait until then, I certainly will ask that they consider it at that time.

Mr. VELDE. We are always glad to have the opinion of labor organizations such as the A. F. of L. I wonder if you have a feeling yourself that no legislation is needed at all?

Mr. RILEY. I haven't said we don't need legislation to protect this country.

Mr. VELDE. It appears to me that over a period of years we have had this kind of problem constantly with us.

Mr. RILEY. Absolutely, and it is getting more intense, and the remedies proposed need to be intense.

Mr. VELDE. It appears to me we have not, by ordinary means of exposition of the problem, been able to combat it successfully. I am referring to the case of Alger Hiss and other American Communists in this country who have been operating for a long time and we have been unable to do anything with them under our laws.

Mr. RILEY. You only got Mr. Hiss by indirection, as being a perjurer rather than having committed the act.

Mr. VELDE. Your personal opinion is that there should be some law passed, or some laws we already have, amended to handle the problem? Mr. RILEY. This committee is entitled to a lot of applause. It is like buying a new automobile. You have to go under 35 miles an hour at first to keep from stripping the gears. You have a new car here.

Mr. WOOD. General Kearney.

Mr. KEARNEY. I want to add my thanks for your very complete statement, particularly your thoughts on education. I think all organizations, whether fraternal or otherwise, should bring to the attention of their membership the situation as it exists today, and possibly a lot of legislation could be done away with entirely. There

should be Flag Day observances all over the Nation such as you will have on June 14.

Mr. RILEY. We take our hats off to no one when it comes to our work on Americanism.

Mr. KEARNEY. I notice on page 2 of your statement you refer to the passport situation. As it stands now, the Department of State has a right to deny a passport to any individual for various reasons. Mr. RILEY. I was pointing out some of the high spots.

Mr. KEARNEY. As I understand your remarks, the American Federation of Labor does not object to legislation on this subject provided it is the type of legislation that should be enacted; that is, that protects individuals against thought-control or persecution?

Mr. RILEY. We don't want to be caught in the middle because maybe sometime some of our affiliates might have been thinking in terms of public ownership and the Socialist Party.

Mr. KEARNEY. Don't you agree in many cases we hear of today a lot of the individuals were brought into Communist-front organizations through what, to me, is a sucker list. They are innocent people who just get caught. For instance, an individual might be vitally interested in the peace of the world, and some committee comes to him and says: "We would like you, as an outstanding citizen, to join our committee and come out for peace.' "Then the committee might turn out to be a Communist front.

Mr. RILEY. Do-gooders. He wakes up some morning and finds his picture on the front page as a subversive. Some years ago there was a person in the Government here who was invited by the Washington Book Shop to get her name on their list, and they said: "Look how much money you can save on phonograph records and books." This committee finally cited that outfit, and she was horrified. She comes from up-State New York, the heart of America, and this was the first time she had come to Washington, to work in the Government. Mr. KEARNEY. I agree with you that up-State New York is the heart of America.

Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question.
Mr. WOOD. Mr. Moulder.

Mr. MOULDER. Briefly summarizing your views on this proposed legislation, is it this: That you are not opposed to the passage of legislation which has as its objective the elimination of the dangers of unAmerican or subversive activities?

Mr. RILEY. Not in the slightest.

Mr. MOULDER. But you are appealing to the committee to conscientiously study the proposed legislation and to eliminate any provisions that might be based on passion or prejudice?

Mr. RILEY. That is right.

Mr. MOULDER. So that such legislation will protect the fundamental laws of our country as to due process of law so that no innocent person might be injured?

Mr. RILEY. You will let a lot of guilty ones go through, but you will protect the innocent ones.

Mr. WOOD. I believe I can assure you that the membership of this committee is in hearty accord with your view that utmost diligence should be given to see that whatever legislation this committee may

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report in this field shall have such protection so that no innocent person shall be injured thereby.

Mr. RILEY. Mr. Mandel called me a couple of weeks ago, and I came up here and he said: "What are the objections to this bill? What is wrong with it?" As a matter of fact, I pointed out as many suggestions for improvement as I did objections to the bill in its present form. For example, I pointed out that the words "stations," "reservations," "outposts," of no sort are mentioned. You have everything else. I also pointed out that, while you are talking about periodicals and magazines and radio, you haven't mentioned one form of communication which to me was quite obvious, because I used to be in the field, and that is a publication where an organization or a printing outfit can incorporate and immediately upon completing the job go out of business. It didn't seem to me that type of publication was included. I made some suggestions for improving the bill; so I think I ought to get 50-50 on this thing.

The second observation I wanted to make is in line with Mr. Kearney's questioning awhile ago. In 1945, shortly after the Labor Party came to power in England, there was held at Blackpool, England, a meeting of the Federated Trade-Union Congress, and there were sent from the A. F. of L. two fraternal delegates, one of whom is our national secretary and treasurer, Mr. George Meaney. George let go a broadside on those fellows that awakened them. He let them know not only that he felt they were lackadaisical or in the doldrums but that American labor was not. That was in the spring of 1945. I don't think the war was over, or it was just getting over. He pointed out to the British that as long as they stayed in the World Trade-Union outfit they were going down the drain and the suction would carry still more along.

He was almost hooted down, "Withdraw, withdraw," but he had the courage of his conviction and he said, "No, I am going through with those remarks," and he went through with them. That was the opening gun in our modern fight on communism and other "isms."

Mr. WOOD. This committee is cognizant of the efforts of your organization, and we feel your organization is entitled to commendation for the fight you have made against this menace to the American way of life.

Mr. RILEY. It is swell of you to say that.

Mr. WOOD. I express to you the appreciation of the committee for your time in coming here and for the information you have given us. Mr. RLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Woon. The committee will stand adjourned until 3:30 this afternoon.

(Thereupon, at 12: 30 p. m., on Friday, March 24, 1950, a recess was taken.)