weighted with the trade, as it is described. I would like to point out for the record that during your administration the take of the fellow between the farmer and the consumer has increased substantially. In fact, the consumer is paying much more now than he was paying when you came in. The farmer is getting much less. The Treasury is paying out much more, and the middleman has increased his share of the consumer dollar up to where he is getting about 60 percent of the consumer dollar. Those are facts I just do not see how you can blind yourself to. NATIONAL AGRICULTURAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE Mr. BENSON. You raised two questions. In the first place, our National Agricultural Advisory Committee is bipartisan. It is an 18man committee. The executive order of the President requires that a minimum number of 12 farmers serve on that committee. Mr. WHITTEN. When was that order issued? Mr. BENSON. In 1953, about the time I came into office. I did set up an interim committee even before I took office to counsel with as to what we needed in the way of new farm legislation. The question of being bipartisan never came up. I selected men in whom I had confidence and never asked them their political affiliations. This committee was set up by the President at my request and it is bipartisan. There are 9 Democrats and 9 Republicans. At least 12 must be bona fide farmers. I think the number today is either 13 or 14 farmers on that committee. Therefore you cannot say it is weighted by representatives of industry. We just added three new members. We rotate some off every year. They serve 3 years or more, and of the 3 that were just appointed, 1 is a corn hog farmer from Iowa, with a typical family farm, and a tenant farmer; another is from western Kansas, a combination of wheat and livestock farmer; another is a typical farmer from Indiana, a small family farmer. They are all farmers, these three new ones just appointed, and they attended their first meeting Monday and Tuesday of this week. We try to get a balance on that committee. We try to get the best advice we can get through these committees. Our CCC Advisory Board, which has been authorized by the Congress, is also bipartisan. Usually the people on that committee are farmers. At least 3 of the 5 members on the present Board are farmers. That is a smaller board, of five people. COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP Mr. WHITTEN. I think you have improved in recent years on the makeup of your committees, after we pointed out some facts, though your bona fide farmer may be the biggest cotton shipper or trader in the world, but if he farms a little bit he meets the qualifications of that. I have a list submitted through the years. I would repeat again that in my judgment, at least, they have been heavily weighted with the trade, as against those actually in farming. At the moment, I haven't studied your present list. 21494-58-pt. 4- -16 Secretary BENSON. I think the record from the very beginning will show that never at any time have there been fewer than 12 farmers on the National Agriculture Advisory Commission. We would be glad to give you the background on every member of the commission. Two of them at least are tenant farmers at the present time. They are all good men. Mr. WHITTEN. We have the record in the past years. It is from that that I am speaking. SMALL FARMS Now we turn to another answer that you usually give, and that is to the effect that much of the problem is that many farmers are too small to have economic operations. Is that one of your beliefs? Secretary BENSON. I think it is generally recognized, Mr. Chairman, that many of our farms in this country are too small to make an economic unit. I don't think it is for me to say, or for the Government to say, that a man should move out of agriculture or into agriculture. I think the Government's interest should be to help people help themselves help them to make the adjustment which they feel they want to make in their own best interest and to keep our economy fluid enough so that people can move in and out according to their own wishes. Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Secretary, I would like to read to you, or quote to you your own book, “Ezra Taft Benson, Farmers at the Crossroads," issued in 1956. On page 5 you make this statement: Of the 4,800,000 farms, there are 2,600,000 small farms. Of these, 1 million are residential farms, defined as farms by the census, whose residents really do not depend upon the farm income for their living. Then there are about 1,100,000 small commercial units, and 570,000 part-time farmers. You go ahead and say, however, that— 2,200,000 of the total number produce 88 percent of our agricultural output that goes into commercial channels. I have seen more recent figures, in which it is said that 44 percent of the farmers produce 91 percent of the farm production that goes into commercial channels. Now if, through the soil bank approach of paying farmers not to farm, or even if economic necessity should force this 56 percent of small farmers off the farm, do you realize that you would effect only 9 percent of the commercial production? Can't you see that that would have precious little, if any, effect on the production of surpluses, if you get rid of the whole 56 percent of small farms; in fact such land added to larger units would actually increase total production. Secretary BENSON. Mr. Chairman, we have no disposition to get rid of any percentage at any time. The figures you quote are essentially correct, 44 percent of our farms today do produce 90.8 percent-about 91 percent, and 56 percent, about 9.2. These farmers, on many of these small farms, have serious problems. They have problems of getting sufficient income to sustain their families. Some of them are already working part time off farms. Their acreage is small. They can't afford to mechanize. They have serious problems of adjustment. Through the rural development program, which I think has been generally conceded one of the most constructive programs that we have ever advocated— any of us-to meet the needs of these small farmers, under that program we try to help them make the adjustment which they feel in their own hearts they must make if they are going to raise their standard of living and their income for their families. In some cases that means providing part-time employment off farms. Sometimes it means combining two small farms into an economic unit. It may mean some vocational training. It may mean moving a small industry into the community to absorb the excess labor. This is operating now on an experimental basis in 30 States and Puerto Rico. There has been nothing but commendation for the program. I think it gets at the heart of the problem of many of our small low-income farmers and yet leaves the decision with the family on the land, where I think it should be. Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Secretary, one of the problems when you take to the air and when you speak, is that with your background you can brush over and pass over many things and get into other things that give an indication that everything is smooth when the full story is different. Secretary BENSON. What do you mean by my background? Secretary BENSON. You mean a man who has been engaged in churchwork and farm organization work is inclined to mislead people? I wouldn't do that. Mr. WHITTEN. May I say on the record that it is surprising. I have never seen anybody that did a more artistic job of being technically correct but misleading in your approach. You have asked for it, and I say that for the record. Secretary BENSON. Mr. Chairman Mr. WHITTEN. Your speech you made in Minnesota as I have quoted clearly uses figures to the point that it is misleading to the listeners. I think you do that regularly. Secretary BENSON. I don't think it is, Mr. Chairman. If you read on, I discuss this whole question of farm costs and go right into it. I try to give my audience the facts as I see them. Mr. WHITTEN. Very adroitly, may I say, Mr. Secretary. RURAL-DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM Proceeding to this small-farm program that you mention, we pointed out last year it is costing you $36,000 per county on an average. Secretary BENSON. I couldn't say as to the exact figure. Mr. WHITTEN. That much money spent in the counties under present conditions would be of considerable help. That is experimental, is it not? Secretary BENSON. We started out on a pilot-county basis. We have gone far enough where we feel sure in our own minds it is no longer experimental. We have proven it is worthwhile. Mr. WHITTEN. You expect to recommend its expansion to 3,000 counties in the United States that may need it? Secretary BENSON. I am not sure there will be 3,000 counties that will need it, but I think it is a program that can be adapted to the needs in any county, if there should be low income, small farmers. I think the program could offer some help to them. It is largely run by the local people through their own initiative. Mr. WHITTEN. With $36,000 paid out by the Federal Government for each county. Secretary BENSON. I imagine the amount paid out on a pilot-county basis to get it started may be a little larger than we would expect for the future, as it expands. I don't know. Even if it is $36,000 in each county, and it does an effective job, I think it is a very small amount. ECONOMIC EFFECT OF SMALL FARMS Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Secretary, I ask you again if this 56 percent of small farmers who produce only about 9 percent of the commercial production that goes into commercial channels were to all leave the farm voluntarily, that would leave that land then to be added to economic units. Wouldn't that in your judgment increase total production rather than decrease it? Secretary BENSON. I am not sure that it would show very much difference. It might a little. I don't know. Mr. WHITTEN. What would become of this land if all the farmers leave? If 56 percent of the farmers were to leave voluntarily, you don't believe that that land, being added to these commercial operations, where they do have machinery and they do have these other things, you can't see that that would in all likelihood increase total productions? Secretary BENSON. You are talking about something that will never happen. They won't all leave. Relatively few will make this adjustment and move into other occupations. That trend has been going on for generations. We simply want to help them to do the thing they want to do in their own best interests. We are not going to tell them to leave the farm. I am not going to tell anyone to leave the farm or to move onto the farm. That is their decision. PRICE SUPPORTS Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Secretary, it is surprising to me that here you say that you would recommend abolishing a program whereby the farmers vote as to whether they want an assurance of price, as against, and take with it, control. You would apparently wish to change that law where they would be dependent upon the action of Ezra Taft Benson in Washington as to what that price would be? Secretary BENSON. No, Mr. Chairman. Mr. WHITTEN. Don't you advocate a law which lets you set the price to the farmers, instead of letting them vote as to whether they want a certain price fixed by law and control? Do you? Secretary BENSON. I recommend that we be given a wider range in the use of the price-support mechanism, which the Congress has provided on most commodities. Mr. WHITTEN. That is right, under your Republican administration they gave you that authority, did they not? Secretary BENSON. No. This dates back to the 1949 act, I think, Mr. Chairman, on all the commodities, except a very few. We have complete discretion. I could go out and put supports under hops or anything I wanted to under the law. We have complete discretion for feed grains and soybeans. We could go to zero. As I say, we have never gone below 70 percent. I think it is better for the commodity for us to have enough range in the use of the price-support mechanism. I think it can be very useful. I think we should have enough economic discretion to really do the best job possible for the farmer. That is my concern. That is my only concern. I have no desire for any more authority. I think the Secretary has too much authority now, as a matter of fact. Mr. WHITTEN. We are going to try to remedy some of that on the floor this afternoon in the price freeze bill. Secretary BENSON. You won't remedy it. problems. That will add to the Wr. WHITTEN. I mean take away some of your discretion by prohibiting you from making further reductions for a year. Secretary BENSON. Well Mr. WHITTEN. I am glad to know that you think you have too much, because it fits right in. I agree with you. Secretary BENSON. I do. I don't think you can run the agriculture of this country from a desk in Washington. I think we have got to move in the direction of greater freedom for the farmer to plant, to market, and to compete, and greater freedom from Government intererence and regulation. I think we have proven that you cannot effectively control agriculture by controlling acres or fixing prices. Mr. WHITTEN. May I say, Mr. Benson, in 5 years you have certainly shown that we can't meet the farm problem with your ideas, if I can read the records right. As I say, again, farm income from the farm has gone down drastically in 5 years, including direct payments from the Treasury; it is down over $2 billion a year from 5 years ago. I would repeat again, the records which we have put into this report show that during that period the cost of running the Department has jumped up from sevenhundred-million-odd dollars, until you are asking here for more than $1.6 billion. I repeat again, while we have had you in office, your holdings in Commodity Credit Corporation have gone from $2.5 billion to $7.2 billion. Consumers are paying more. The Government taxpayer is paying lots more. The farmer is getting less. The only man that has improved is the man between the farmer and consumer. He has increased his take of consumer dollars to where he now gets 60 percent of it. I would like to ask you this: Many of us on this committee have tried to point out to you through the years that you can't have a declining farm income without it being felt by the rest of the economy. According to the records before the Appropriations Committee today, according to Government reports, there is approximately 5.5 million unemployed people. A few weeks ago the President asked Congress for $25 million over and above the |