a giving to a committee so that it might have the jurisdiction and the built-in constituency that would make it a very effective, continually participating committee and, hopefully, in a situation where it would be able to lead the Congress to play a more effective role vis-a-vis the Executive on the whole question of foreign affairs. Since most of the other notions had come out, I thought that it might be a good idea to make it clear why I believe that particular action was at least in part taken.

Now, what I need to know from the committee is this, and presumably we will find a few things we didn't list, is how you will want to proceed in considering this matter. There are a great many other things besides jurisdiction and one track that are involved. We have a whole flock of things that not too many people have looked at in that tentative report, and we will have to go over them systematically. With regard to the final version on jurisdiction and the one track, it seems to me that somewhere down the line, I don't know when but sooner rather than later, I hope, we will come up with a substitute, or maybe we will have a series of substitutes-and there won't be anything clever about this, not a substitute suddenly offered to the committee but a substitute worked out, discussed, and circulated and discussed in meetings like this, the component parts of it.

But what do we want to do next? Do we want next to proceed to deal with all the jurisdictional adjustments that may be a good idea and the ones that may be expedient, to put it in as blunt as possible terms? Do we want to do that in a systematic way at the next meeting, having a list, an agenda of subjects that we will discuss? What is the committee's pleasure as to how we should proceed?

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Chairman, if I might, because I do have a longstanding appointment in about 15 minutes. I would suggest that at our next meeting we proceed in the manner you just mentioned and go to Agriculture, and where they have suggestions or changes in jurisdiction from the manner originally set forth, to make those changes, those that we can agree on, and proceed in an orderly fashion. Mr. STEPHENS. The suggestions that have been made will be made into a list?

Chairman BOLLING. Correct. They are almost all here. Here is a confidential committee print.

Mr. STEPHENS. Do we each have a copy of that?

Chairman BOLLING. You will each have a copy of that. We will presumably proceed either on the basis of this, which starts with Agriculture and Natural Resources, or on some other list.

We tried to list everything on which there was controversy, Lloyd, either suggested controversy, controversy perceived by the committee's possible alterations. The only thing we have done is to reiterate our commitment, in effect, to the principle of the one track with the addition that we are not in concrete and there might be some modifications for a variety of reasons. It is a reassertion that we are on the one-track rather than the two-track approach. Now, all we are trying to do is to decide how to proceed.

I think the Chair, with the approval of the committee, will devise a systematic technique of going through item by item.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. It is not quite clear to me whether we are going through the items which are in contention, if that is the word,

because members or organizations or individuals have raised some question about the wisdom of our tentative recommendations. Or are we going to review again and affirm our tentative conclusions on things that are not brought up in contention?

Mr. SARBANES. Could I speak to that? I think it would be helpful to spend another meeting going through that, in effect doing what we did a little earlier, only making sure that we have done it in a systematic way, committee by committee. With respect to this committee, these are the areas that have raised questions, and these are the suggestions we have received.

We have collected them here by going around the table. I think it would serve a purpose to have that.

Chairman BOLLING. That is the purpose of the committee print. Mr. SARBANES. And without deciding on that point. Part of what we eventually decide will depend on the number of points in contention and how they can be resolved with one another.

Chairman BOLLING. I think we are going to do both, really. We will do it very systematically. We will make sure that this confidential print does not miss anything here. We will go through the list starting with the first committee under consideration and we will affirm except

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. In effect, everything is tentative because we may change any of it.

Chairman BOLLING. That is correct. But once we get to a certain point, it will be less tentative than it was before.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I hope we will not move too slowly. It is a process that conceivably could take weeks.

Chairman BOLLING. It will not be done slowly.

I have not had a chance to discuss it with the committee or with members of the committee, but let me say this: I have been constantly moving the timing within my head at least, and so far the committee has agreed. As I see this situation, there is no reason why we cannot finish this up by the end of February, this process. It might conceivably take a few meetings after that, but I think we can finish it up by the end of February, and we then can do the paperwork which is necessary in a week or 10 days. That is if we have the kinds of, not consensus, but agreement that it would go to the floor that I anticipate, with the attitude I believe the leadership has. We ought to be able to go to Rules and have Rules treat this not as a subject that they will open up, but as a matter of what kind of rule it should be considered under and get to the floor not after Easter but before Easter. I think we should be working to that end. While I haven't wanted to press today, I would hope that we would continue to do what we did today, which was not to delay the process. I think it is very important that we try to finish this up not in a way that prevents anybody from having their opportunity to convey their views to us, whether they are inside or outside, but in a way that moves expeditiously. Otherwise we will be so far into the political season that it will be almost hopeless to get the matter considered rationally.

So we will meet again on Wednesday. I do not know as yet whether we will have a meeting on Thursday. It will depend a little bit on whether the House has any business. We will meet in a place to be announced. It may be this place or it may be another place.

I apologize to those who have stood so patiently for a couple of hours. We will try to have a larger place.

We will meet on the subject and in the manner described.

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Whereupon, at 3:50 p.m., the committee adjourned to reconvene at 2 p.m., Wednesday, February 6, 1974.]

COMMITTEE REFORM AMENDMENTS OF 1974

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1974

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMITTEES,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:25 p.m., in room 321, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Richard Bolling (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Bolling, Stephens, Meeds, Sarbanes, Martin, Frelinghuysen, Steiger, and Young.

Also present: Charles S. Sheldon II, chief of staff, Melvin M. Miller, deputy chief of staff, Gerald J. Grady, Spencer M. Beresford, Linda H. Kamm, Robert C. Ketcham, Walter J. Oleszek, Roger H. Davidson, Terence T. Finn, Mary E. Zalar, Linda G. Stephenson, and Joan B. Bachula.

Chairman BOLLING. We don't quite have a quorum, but I think I will call the committee to order. We have a few things that I would like to mention.

We now have an outline of Committee Print No. 1 reproduced on Xerox, which makes it much easier to find what you want to find in Committee Print No. 1. That will be distributed to members and I assume available to others.

Unless there is objection from the committee, we will maintain minutes. We have a complete record, but we will maintain and distribute to members mintues of what happens at each of these open markup sessions and if the members discover something that they feel is in error corrections can be made. The minutes will be carefully done by the staff on sort of a rotating basis. If members find something that they think is in error, it will be reported and corrected. These are unofficial minutes rather than official, but they are helpful as reminders. We have distributed without the chairman and vice chairman having an opportunity to examine it more or less of an index on the comments made by various members and others on the tentative report of the select committee. That is from Charles Sheldon to the members of the Select Committee on Committees; it is a report of written comments received by House Members. It seems to be a rather useful document.

Next, let me read a summary from the minutes of our action taken the day before yesterday. In summary it says:

(1) The Committee decided to discuss first one-track versus two-track approach to the committee reorganization, then to discuss jurisdiction.

(2) The committee supported the one-tier committee system of the tentative draft, recognizing that there may be modifications or alterations.

(3) There was consensus that in the transition to the new committee system. a member be guaranteed a place of his choice of one of the two commitees he

serves on.

The staff will draw up language on this transitional proposal.

The committee adjourned until February 6 to a place to be announced later. There you will see an attempt, I think quite a good one, to reconstruct what was done, a summary of what was done, that was about three-quarters of a page. I have the feeling it is going to work out. I am not sure whether something of major importance will be scheduled next week. I have a suspicion there will not be anything of major importance scheduled next week, but I think we will be able to meet tomorrow. It will be sensible to meet tomorrow unless I learn differently from committee members because I gather there is business on the floor. There seems to be at least a bare possibility although I have heard nothing from the leadership.

I had a casual conversation with the chairman of the Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee. There seems to be a possibility, a bare possibility that the conference report on the energy bill might possibly come up tomorrow. And the reason that I am not sure about the schedule for next week is if it doesn't come up tomorrow and is in order and ready, I suppose next week, the business next week might seem to members at least to solicit their presence rather than require it. but I don't know.

I think some time today or tomorrow we will be able to make a decision on whether we will have any committee meetings next week. We are scheduled currently to meet on the 13th and 14th.

It may be that we will not have any possibility of a quorum on those days, so it would not be fruitful to meet then. I think it is pretty obvious that if we blank that whole week, that when we get back, if we are going to meet anything like our deadline, we are going to have to do some afternoon and evening meetings.

Now, according to our agreement of last week, we should start dealing with specifics and jurisdiction and I assume each one of you have one of these comparative committee prints which are very scarce indeed and are only given to members when they ask for them.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. May I?

[Document handed to Mr. Frelinghuysen.]

Chairman BOLLING. There is nothing remarkable about these; they are just a convenience.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You are embarrassing me.

Chairman BOLLING. They were just passed out a minute ago.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. This shows not only that I was unaware they were passed out, but that I came in late.

Chairman BOLLING. If I embarrass you, I apologize.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Not too seriously. I assure you.

Chairman BOLLING. I would entertain discussion first on the second column of the left-hand page, page 2. We have the first column which is "Present Jurisdiction," which we would propose to change to "Proposed Jurisdiction."

The second column lists our losses and the third column lists our gains.

Our losses are as follows: We lost agricultural colleges to Education; food stamps to Ways and Means; Public Law 480, except for domestic production aspects, to Foreign Affairs; commodities ex