and the Postmaster General for the conveyance of the Mails between Dover and Calais be approved."-(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.). SIR WILLIAM FRASER moved, as an Amendment "That this House declines to approve the said Contract until an undertaking be given by the South Eastern Company and the London, Chatham, and Dover Company to provide more adequate service in their steam vessels." those travelling between Dover and Calais. It had been found impossible, in the present state of Calais harbour, to use ships with single keels of larger size than those at present employed in the service. The Company had therefore purchased the the Calais-Douvres, a twin ship of considerable size, in order to carry on a difficult service in a satisfactory manner. He denied that the He complained that the boats which accommodation afforded was so bad as were used by these two Companies for it was represented to be; and with the cross-Channel traffic were not what respect to the increase in the amount of they should be; that they were often the contract, he explained that it was overcrowded; and that the accommoda- necessary by reason of the fact that they tion for the vast number of inhabitants had to carry a much heavier quantity of of this country who went and returned mails, and that their expenses had largely from abroad every year was most inade- increased through the increased cost of quate. Seeing that in the course of the materials and wages. It was the desire autumn very large numbers of the of those who conducted the Continental public would be proceeding to France, service between Dover and Calais to do he felt that it was necessary some steps do so at the rates the Companies were so in the most efficient manner; but to should be taken to remedy the present wants, so that something like decent at present receiving involved a great accommodation should be provided for loss, and he was sure that the House the public. He therefore declined to would not require such a sacrifice from assent to the proposed contract, which any Company. The French Governshowed an increase of £8,000 over the ment were making a large increase in former terms, until some satisfactory the size and capabilities of Calais harassurances were given for the future. bour, and when those works were comThe House had no other means of ob-pleted, as they would be in about four. jecting to the present inferior service than the present Motion, and therefore he begged to move his Amendment. years, the Company would be able to have larger and more powerful boats than could be employed under existing circumstances. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he could not admit that the answer of the hon. and gallant Member for Dover (Major Dickson) on behalf of the Company was satisfactory, for the reason that the only answer they had made to offers on the part of the Government of assistance in the work they had to perform was a demand for an increased subsidy. This had resulted, he supposed, from the fact that the railway communication was practically in the hands of one Company, which rendered it difficult for the Government to do anything except submit. At the same time, however, he wished to point out that the service in question was a very peculiar one, and that there had to be considered the disadvantages of the harbours at both sides of the Channel. He thought that what had been done in the matter was the best that could be done in the circumstances. On the whole, therefore, he hoped that the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Kidderminster (Sir William Fraser) MR. ANDERSON thought it rather would be satisfied with simply having called attention to the subject, and would not press his Motion to a division. There was no doubt that great public good would result from the improvement of the harbours in connection with the service, and that when those harbours were improved larger boats could be employed, and the service could be conducted more satisfactorily. Meanwhile, he hoped that the proposal of the Government to continue the existing contract would meet with general approval, and that it would be seen that the course taken by the Government was the only one that could well be adopted in the circumstances. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Main Question put. Resolved, That the Contract entered into between the South Eastern Railway Company and the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company and the Postmaster General for the conveyance of the Mails between Dover and Calais be approved. LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (IRELAND) CONFIRMATION (DOWNPATRICK, &c.) BILL. On Motion of Mr. JAMES LOWTHER, Bill for confirming certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Waterworks in the Poor Law Union of Downpatrick, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JAMES LOWTHER and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND. ORDERS OF THE DAY. 1606 RACECOURSES (LICENSING) BILL. (Mr. Anderson, Sir Thomas Chambers, Sir James Lawrence.) [BILL 173.] COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) MR. STACPOOLE rose to move that Progress be reported. The Bill was opposed by several hon. Members; but he was not aware that any of them were present. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. Stacpoole.) Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson hard that the hon. Member should make that Motion. Four months ago the Bill gained its second reading, and, during that long interval, not a single Amendment had been proposed to any of its clauses. Moreover, all the Amendments asked for by the Government had been incorporated in the Bill. Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted, and 40 Members not being present, Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair; House counted, and 40 Members not being present, House adjourned at a quarter after HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 6th June, 1878. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- Second Reading-General Police and Improve- Second Reading-Committee negatived-Consolidated Fund (No. 3); Exchequer Bonds (No. 2) *. Select Committee-Telegraphs (77), nominated. Third Reading Metropolis Improvement Pre- POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT (1876) (The Earl of Shaftesbury.) THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, that the object of the Bill, which had come up from the Commons, was to amend the 23rd Section of "The Divided Parishes and Poor Law Amendment Act, 1876," so far as related to Friendly and Benefit Societies. The Bill, which consisted of a single clause, proposed to enact that the provisions of that clause should not apply to monies which a pauper, or pauper lunatic, might be entitled to as a member of a Friendly or Benefit Society. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." -(The Earl of Shaftesbury.) THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, that the Bill proposed to effect a considerable change in the existing law, of which he had great doubts as to the expediency. Hitherto, when a man came upon the poor rates, the Union authorities were entitled to take possession of any property he might have. The Bill proposed to exempt from that power any monies which the pauper might be entitled to receive as a member of any benefit or friendly society. It was provided, it was true, that the officers of the society should apply those monies to the maintenance of the wife and family of the pauper, if he had one; but if he had not, the Guardians were not entitled to receive the moneys, unless they had specially declared beforehand that the relief given to the pauper was by way of loan. He thought this proposal tended to destroy the spirit of independence and self-reliance, by teaching the working man that he was entitled to relief for himself, independent of the circumstances of his family. EARL FORTESCUE expressed his concurrence with the noble Earl, in the principle that a pauper was not entitled to relief until any property he might possess was exhausted; and there was no reason why monies in the friendly societies should be exempted more than any other kind of property. He remembered that when he was Secretary to the Poor Law Board, Mr. C. Buller and he passed a clause facilitating the recovery of the cost of relief given to paupers out of property which had subsequently either become or been discovered to be under their control. This Bill went on exactly the opposite principle. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON acknowledged that the provisions of the Bill, as it now stood, were objectionable. The question, however, was one of considerable importance; and, though he was not prepared to say that the Bill should not be read a second time, he thought that the next stage should not be taken until some time had been allowed for consideration. THE EARL OF REDESDALE said, he could not see on what principle a man should be maintained by the parish, while his wife and family were to receive the proceeds of any savings he might have effected. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 24th instant. TIANS.-QUESTION-OBSERVATIONS. THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: My Lords, in putting to my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the Question, of which I have given Notice, I quite admit that the subject is one of great difficulty and delicacy; but, at the same time, I think I can put it in such a manner as to avoid anything that might stir the susceptibilities of any who may be about to take part in the Congress. The Armenians, as represented by the ex-Patriarch of Constantinople and others, complain that, while in the Treaty of San Stefano all the other Christian subjects of Turkey are mentioned separately and in detail, and their position is fully recognized, they themselves are scarcely mentioned, or only mentioned in such a manner, merely by name, as to give them no kind of security that their case will be fully considered whenever the Congress shall assemble. They state that they constitute a nationality worthy of consideration, and that altogether in the world they amount to between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000, of whom about 3,000,000 are inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire, 1,000,000 are under Russian rule, and the rest scattered throughout Persia, Java, Europe, and America. true that in the 16th clause of the Treaty of San Stefano, the Armenians were mentioned; but that clause gave very little assurance beyond this, that the Porte would do its best to save them from the ravages of the Kurds and Circassians. Everyone knows that the It was Armenian Province of Turkey is one of the finest countries on the face of the earth, and the Armenian Christians are noted for their intelligence and commercial industry throughout the world. All that they at present require is contained in the Question on the Notice Papernamely, Whether the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will undertake, that in the Congress about to be held, the case of the Armenian Christians shall be heard as well as the case of the other Christians under the Government of Turkey? I think that they have addressed a very humble and proper request. They have a right to be protected under the great European Treaty of 1856; and I am sure that the intelligence of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will induce him to consider the question, and that the generosity of his heart will stir him to do all that is consistent with his duty to promote the interest of this great nationality, so long labouring under such grievous oppression and cruelty. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY : My Lords, the Armenian Christians, I believe, are mentioned in an Article of the Treaty of San Stefano, in which the Sultan promises to provide such reforms as will relieve the immediate localities, and protect them from their special sufferings-the ravages of the neighbouring hordes of Kurds. The other Christians under the government of Turkey are not, if my recollection serves me rightly, provided for specifically in the Treaty. What is provided for is that institutions shall be given to the Christian Provinces. That is not a distinction without a difference. Where the Christians are exclusively, or a very large majority, of the inhabitants of a particular Province, it is possible to give them special institutions, and to give the Province special institutions also; but where they are mixed with a large proportion of persons of another faith, it is not possible to give them special institutions, without having recourse to that which is undoubtedly an anomaly-namely, the provision of different institutions for the inhabitants of the same locality. That is, undoubtedly, a very considerable difficulty, and certainly it is one which will meet us on the threshhold of the case of Armenia, whenever it may come to be considered; because, though un The Earl of Shaftesbury doubtedly the Armenians are a people of a separate faith, and-though the term cannot be applied with accuracy-they may also be regarded as constituting a separate nationality, yet they are so scattered about, and so mixed with the Turkish population, that either you must provide institutions applicable to Turks, Kurds, and Armenians, alike, or else you must have recourse to the anomalous device I have referred to-of having several different institutions in the same locality. I am pointing out this to show my noble Friend that the case of the Armenians is not quite on all fours with that of other Christians inhabiting other Provinces of Turkey. With respect to my noble Friend's Question, I can only say that it is not my province to indicate what a Congress consisting of the Powers of Europe will think it right to do; but it is, undoubtedly, the fact that the case of the Armenians must, by the Article of the Treaty of San Stefano, to which I have alluded, be brought under the consideration of the Congress. I feel sure that the other European Powers will examine the case of Armenia with great sympathy for all its people, and with a desire that their lot should be ameliorated, and I can assure my noble Friend, with absolute confidence, that these sentiments will animate Her Majesty's Government. THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, I have heard with satisfaction the statement of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; because, though undoubtedly that statement was guarded, I gather from it that the case of the Armenian people will be brought effectively before the Congress, and that, so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, whatever should in justice be done for them will be done. And, my Lords, if justice is to be done, there are no Christian subjects of Turkey who deserve more consideration than the Armenians. They are a religion and a nationality distinct in themselves. They are ancient in history; they are a peaceful, industrious, and highly commercial people; and they are second only to the Greeks in intellectual power among the Christian races of the East. They may be said, indeed, to be the equivalent of the Greeks in Asia Minor. Nor have any people suffered a greater amount of oppression than the Armenians. In [as with that of other nationalities, will not content itself with merely patching up the present grievance; but, if a fair and full attempt is made at a final settlement of this question, the causes of scandal and future strife which exist now may be removed; and then only such means of prosperity may be secured to them, as will make them contentedly acquiesce in the form of government which may be given to them. that, indeed, it may be said they have but shared the common fate of the other Christian races of the East; but I believe that the misfortunes and sufferings of the Armenians have been greater than those of some of the Christian races in Europe, because the power of the Porte was less felt in those distant Provinces, and the public opinion of Europe has been less brought to bear upon their case. I myself, when travelling in those districts, many years ago, EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I was often a witness of the grinding op- heard with satisfaction the temperate pression to which the Armenians were terms in which my noble Friend behind subjected. No time, indeed, will ever me (the Earl of Shaftesbury) brought efface from my recollection the evidence forward the undoubtedly strong case of of the ruthless spoliation and savagery the Armenians. He has shown what a to which some of those Christian races, strong claim the Armenians have on the living far away from the sight and pro- sympathy of the European Powers on tection of the European Powers, were account of their peaceful and commercial called upon to endure; but if that were habits and their great intelligence; and the case then, what must be the state I am bound to say that, though guarded, of things now, after a long season of the assurance which the noble Marquess anarchy, and when the reins of govern- the Secretary of State has given of the ment over the Mahommedan population sympathy of Her Majesty's Government are wholly relaxed - when the bar- with the Armenian people is extremely barous Kurdish tribes come down from satisfactory. My noble Friend did not, their mountains without check, carrying and neither do I, expect the noble fire and sword and depredation over the Marquess to go fully into the question whole Province ?I believe that what- now, when the Congress is just about to ever horrors and cruelties have been meet; I feel the difficulty there is in perpetrated in European Turkey, they the way of discussing the matter at the have been perpetrated to at least an equal present time. It is clear-and I do not extent in Asia Minor. That is the first blame them for it-that Her Majesty's point; but there are two other points Government do not wish to make any to be remembered. First, if, after all statement as to the course they propose this, it should be the destiny of the to take at the Congress. My noble Armenian people to pass once more Friend, who is not now present (Earl under Turkish rule, we must bear in Grey), asked, the other evening, whether mind that that rule would be relaxed certain rumours which had appeared in and loosened as the result of present an evening paper as to the agreement anarchy, and that the Mahommedan between Russia and England were corpopulation may even be greatly rein-rect; and the noble Marquess, in reply, forced by fresh accessions from the Turkish Provinces in Europe-a fresh element and cause of disorder and violence. The second is, that Russia at this moment contains, as I think my noble Friend opposite pointed out, not fewer than 1,000,000 Armenians within her districts, and that the condition of these people being greatly superior to that of their fellow-countrymen in Turkey, the contrast will be such that it will tend to keep up that uneasy feeling which it is the object of everyone at this moment, if possible, to allay. My Lords, we are now going into a Congress. I hope that the Congress, in dealing with the case of the Armenians stated that those rumours were not trustworthy. We do not know, therefore, the exact nature of the agreement or of the policy Her Majesty's Government are about to adopt, and I do not think it would be convenient to put any pressure on the Government as to its terms; consequently, it appears to me it would not be convenient-there may be a difficulty-in discussing any particular point which will have to be considered by the Congress. I am glad, however, that this matter has been brought forward, and that the Question of my noble Friend has, to a certain extent at least, met with a satisfactory response from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. |