wished more particularly to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the Hospital branch. They had there the expenses of hospitals, and a number of contingencies-wages, washing, fuel, light, repairs, &c., amounting altogether to a sum of £8,029. Now, that amount had been stowed away somewhere, and he did not know where. It was not in Vote I., because they had accounted for the item, and he thought that a considerable portion of it must be in Vote IV. The difficulty he felt was this-that when the Report was brought on, it was always difficult to discuss a question of this sort, because the Report itself was not brought up until very late. He would suggest to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that, if he were unable to point out in this Vote for medical establishment and services what portion of the sum of £8,000 and odd was included, he should postpone the Vote until some future day. 1438 all he could to forward the Estimates; but he reserved to himself the right of using an independent Member's day for the purpose of calling attention to the state of the Medical Department. He wished his right hon. and gallant Friend to regard this intimation as made in a friendly, and not in an unfriendly, spirit. He had no wish to interfere with any of the steps that were now being taken for the re-organization of the Department. His only object was to improve the present state of things. to what had been brought forward by LORD ELCHO said, he had listened the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell), and he could not help agreeing that the question was a very important one. sirable that they should unduly interrupt On the other hand, it was not dethe Supply. It appeared to him that the question had been fairly met by the offer of the Secretary of State for War. He Member for Meath that he should allow would, therefore, suggest to the hon. the Vote to pass, on the understanding that the information would be given on the Report. COLONEL STANLEY said, he could not accept the suggestion. He had already endeavoured to explain, though, he was afraid, without success, to the hon. Member, that, so far as he was aware, charges which were made upon said, the hon. Member for Meath had a GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR the Stock Purse Fund, except those perfect right to ask for information. It which were included in Vote I., already was certainly within his (Sir George Balvoted, were distributed among the four's) own knowledge, that the origin separate Votes of the Estimates-that of all the evil was allowing the Guards was to say, in the Hospital Vote. The to conduct their own hospitals out of item for provisions, light, forage, fuel, funds levied from the soldier. In point and so forth, belonged to the Stock of fact, the Guards had been allowed, Purse Fund. He was not able to say from time immemorial, to manage their precisely the amount of the charge in- own services in connection with the recluded in each Vote; but if the hon. cruiting and hospitals. The personal Member would be good enough to repeat allowances given to the officers of the his question on Report, he should be Guards for being on duty in London, or glad to give every information. In the liable to be on duty, was wrong. If the neantime, he had endeavoured to answer London duty was undertaken by a batthe question, by stating that, to the talion of the Line, then the officers were best of his belief, the medical officers also entitled to allowances; but these were included in the previous Vote- were fixed and regularly paid out of the that was to say, that the medical ex-voted monies, whereby the Guards raised penses were included in the present Vote; and that the rest of the Stock Purse charges, such as fuel, light, &c., were to be found in the other Votes. COLONEL ARBUTHNOT said, he had intended to raise a question touching the Medical Department upon this Vote; but when he saw a matter brought for ward in such a cavilling spirit, he had changed his mind, and abstained from Occupying the time of the Committee with the subject. He was anxious to do funds under the old and objectionable form by stoppages from the pay of the men, and the consequence had been suspicion that these were doings which a confusion of accounts, as well as a could not be laid open to the country. The Secretary of State for War had now, with the honesty that was his characteristic, proposed to give all the information asked for, and he thought the hon. Member for Meath ought not further to oppose the Vote. MR. PARNELL said, the only reason | itself was brought forward. He would why he appeared to hesitate about ac- suggest to the Government that it would cepting the offer of the right hon. and be well to postpone all these Votes, gallant Gentleman was, because he until the heads of the different Departvery much feared, from what he had ments got to know something about the previously seen in regard to the ques- subjects they had to bring before the tion, that the right hon. and gallant Committee. As the matter existed at Gentleman would not be able to give present, there was a frightful waste of him the information he required. The time involved, because the Committee subject was really in such a ravel and a were unable to get any information; and tangle, that until a new arrangement at the same time, the non-official Memwas made to place the officers of the bers, who really knew a good deal more Guards on the same footing as the about these matters than the heads of officers of the rest of the Army, it would the Departments, did not wish to press be impossible to make head or tail out too hardly upon Gentlemen who were of this question of the Stock Purse new to their Offices. At the same time, Fund. This last attempt of the Govern- he really did think that that system of ment to distribute the items among the asking time after time for the postponeother Votes, instead of making them ment of questions until the Report, one bulk sum, only made confusion when it was well known there could be worse confounded. In point of fact, he no opportunity for discussing the quesdid not think the right hon. Gentleman tion, was most objectionable, and ought knew very well what he was talking to be given up. about, when he answered the question in the first instance. The money was obviously hidden away, and where, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman himself admitted, he did not know. MAJOR NOLAN was sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Hereford (Colonel Arbuthnot) had not brought the question of medical officers before the Committee. He also regretted that MR. BIGGAR said, the difficulty that the Members of the Medical Profession was found in connection with all these who were also Members of the House, Votes was this. The hon. and right and who sat principally on the Opposihon. Gentlemen who had charge of the tion Benches, were not present when different Departments were almost all that Vote was under discussion. In new to their particular positions, and their absence, he desired to bring forwere quite as destitute of information ward a question which considerably afas the House itself. He did not wish fected the interests of medical officers, to make any specific charge against the and which had been a subject of comGovernment on this question, because ment during the last two or three years, he was disposed to make every allow- It was alluded to very recently in a ance for the Secretary of State for War; letter that appeared in the newspapers but it was a very serious position to find from Dr. Corrigan. The question he themselves placed in-that on all occa- referred to was that of providing a supsions when a question was asked in re- ply of surgeons for the Army. It was ference to different Departments they a question in which great interest should receive the same answer from was taken by the Medical Profession the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in generally, and particularly by what charge of them. The evil was that they might be called the Medical Schools. came into Office since the Estimates were The Irish Members had a good deal of framed, and that they did not know interest in the matter, because a large anything about them. Whenever in proportion of the surgeons of the Army formation was asked for, the practice came from Ireland. The letter he rewas to say-"I really don't know any-ferred to really summed up the whole thing about it; but, if you will post-subject. It showed that there was at pone the question until the Report, then I will give you the information required." When the Report came on, if they repeated the question, they were told that it would be wasting time to discuss it, and that the only time for raising the question was when the Vote present a great want of medical officers in the Army, and it put forward as the chief reason, not the want of pay, or of material advantages, but the fact that the medical officers in the Army were not properly treated. One grievance was that they were required to cease to would be wise economy in the end. The hard work entailed by the business of an efficient Staff told hardly upon the private soldier as well as upon the surgeons themselves. At present, there were not a sufficient number of medical officers to enable them to obtain proper leave, and the whole of the Profession was in consequence greatly dissatisfied. He was sorry that his hon. Friend the Member for Galway (Dr. Ward) was not present, because he knew that he was anxious to bring the question forward. In the absence of his hon. Friend, he (Major Nolan) had ventured to introduce the question; and he would only add that, in regard to the medical officers themselves, they were all of them unanimous upon the subject. He wished to ask what steps the Government intended to take in the matter? After a pause— MAJOR NOLAN said, that unless he obtained an answer to his question, he would feel it necessary to move that the Chairman report Progress. be members of regiments and members of messes, this being carried out by an Order of the Secretary of State for War. Personally, he (Major Nolan) had taken great pains at various times to put the question to various Army surgeons he had been brought into contact with, and he certainly found that all the younger members were unanimous. The older members of the Army Medical Profession took the same view, although perhaps not so strongly. All the younger medical men, however, felt very strongly indeed upon the fact that at the present moment they were not members of regiments, and had no locus standi. They found that when they went into a mess they had, as it were, no home. An ordinary officer had his home and his mess, to which he could ask his friends, but the Army medical officers were only there on sufferance, and could ask no friends. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would read the very important letter to which he had referred, which fully summed up the views of the surgeons in the Army. He (Major Nolan) had no doubt that it was a real griev- COLONEL STANLEY said, he had no ance, and the effect of it was witnessed wish to leave the hon. and gallant Memby the diminished number of candidates ber without an answer. He had only for appointments in the Army. He be- waited to see whether any other hon. lieved that if it went on much longer, Member was desirous of continuing the the Army Medical Department would discussion. The House was already drift into a state of hopeless inefficiency. aware that his noble Friend and PredeHe was satisfied that the condition of the cessor (Viscount Cranbrook) had already Medical Profession in the Army would referred to a small Committee the very be much different if the Government important case of the medical officers of would adopt measures for improving the the Army, and had issued general inpresent status of the Medical Profession. structions to that Committee to confer If something of this kind were not done, with all the large medical centres, with the Army itself would suffer in the end; eminent physicians, and the principal because, if the country went into war, medical councils, so as to ascertain really the Medical Department would certainly what in the eyes of the Profession were break down. It would be of no use then the practical difficulties in the way of for Her Majesty's Ministers to say it was obtaining a sufficient supply of medical not their fault; that they were anxious to officers for the Army. Of course, they employ the men, if they could procure all had a certain bias in the matter, and them. It would be the fault of the Go- however carefully they might endeavour vernment entirely, if they did not take to weigh the question, they would have proper precautions to secure an efficient a prejudicial feeling either one way or establishment in a time of peace. It the other. It must be borne in mind was impossible to get an efficient Staff that the present system was adopted in a time of war, because it required a after very careful consideration. It was certain amount of discipline; and civilian adopted mainly in consequence of the practitioners, obtained on the spur of the action taken by a number of the memmoment, would require considerable time bers of the Profession in the view of and training before they could be ren- what they regarded as their grievances. dered efficient. He believed that the His Predecessor in the Office of Secretary application of the regimental system, as of State for War after weighing fully the far as medical officers were concerned, representations of the Profession and VOL. CCXL. [THIRD SERIES.] 3 A considering how their grievances could best be met, came to the conclusion that they were only to be met by the rearrangement of the Medical Service on a basis very distinct from that which had hitherto obtained. Whatever merits might attach to the regimental medical services, Lord Cranbrook considered that it was not absolutely perfect with regard to the position of the officers in the regiment. Therefore, all these things had to be very carefully considered and weighed, in reference to how they would press in particular cases. He feared that it would never be possible so to deal with the matter as to do away altogether with complaints of grievances; but he should hail any opportunity that might arise of putting the gentlemen in the Army Medical Service on a satisfactory footing. At present he was speaking in the dark, because the position of medical men both in the Army and the Navy was changing from day to day, and he had not as yet had opportunity for consulting as many authorities as he should like to consult on such a subject before coming to a decisive opinion upon it. No one could have a more earnest desire for the amelioration of the service than he had, and he hoped he should receive such assistance as would enable him to put his hand upon any blot or defect in the system with a view to its removal; but, at the present moment, he did not think he would be justified in prejudging the question to any extent; at the same time, he was most anxious to consider it. LORD ELCHO said, he wished to refer to a question affecting the health of the troops in India. A correspondence was going on between a general officer who had seen much service in India, the Medical Department, and the Commander-in-Chief, with reference to the hour at which dinner should be served to the troops serving in India. The general officer said he had found that by postponing the hour from 1 o'clock until 4 -a cooler part of the day-the regiment under his command had not suffered, to any great extent, from the complaints to which other European regiments serving in India were subject. He hoped the question would be carefully considered by the authorities. COLONEL ARBUTHNOT said, he should like to know, whether the Committee which had sat to inquire into the subject were likely to report shortly, and Colonel Stanley whether the Report was likely to be published, or whether the inquiry was merely a departmental one? COLONEL STANLEY said, he could not answer the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, because it would depend upon the form and not upon the substance of the answers given by the medical witnesses, whether their evidence could be made public. If it should appear that the evidence was not of a strictly confidential character, he should be happy to produce the Report. Vote agreed to. (2.) £535,400, Pay and Allowances of the Militia, including Militia Reserve. MR. HAYTER called attention to the large and increasing number of men absent without leave. In the year 1875 the number was 10,860; in 1876 it was 11,291; and in last year it was 15,007. The exact figures for this year were not yet available, but there had been an alarming increase already as compared with 1875. MR. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN said, he thought the apparent increase was due to the fact that the Returns had in late years been made out in a different way as far as the permanent Staff was concerned. MAJOR O'BEIRNE wished to make a suggestion with regard to the fund which had accumulated, in the shape of fines for drunkenness, and which now amounted to about £4,000. He thought it would be well to expend this sum in the purchase of newspapers and periodicals, and in providing other forms of recreation, in order, as far as possible, to keep the men out of the public-houses during their periods of training. COLONEL LOYD LINDSAY said, the difficulty had been how to allot so small a sum as £4,000, so as to produce any real and practical benefit. A Departmental Committee was appointed to consider the matter, and it was determined on their Report to dispose of the money in the shape of small indulgences to militiamen during their periods of service. LORD ELCHO referred to the debate which had taken place earlier in the evening upon the state of the Militia, and to the remarks which were then made by the Secretary of State for War. His contention was that the Militia establishment, when it was fixed in 1852 by the Government of that day, was fixed at a standard which was not believed to be a war standard, but the proper standard for the Militia of this country to be maintained at for our home defence. He hoped the strength of the Militia would be kept up, and that the present Secretary of State for War would not shirk his responsibility, as some of his Predecessors had done, but would ask Parliament either for more money, or for compulsory power to enrol men in the Militia. At the time to which he had referred, Mr. Walpole, the then Home Secretary, said the number of the Militia necessary for home defence was 80,000, and that if the number was obtained by voluntary enlistment, the Bill had been so drawn that there would be no necessity to resort to the compulsory clauses. SIR ALEXANDER GORDON pointed out what he deemed to be a great injustice-namely, that money drawn from the fines paid for drunkenness by the Militia was distributed in the shape of gratuities to men in the Regular Army. This was a course likely to cause much dissatisfaction in the Militia, and it was a course, moreover, which, if he was correctly informed, had not received the sanction of the Treasury. COLONEL ARBUTHNOT thought greater consideration should be shown to non-commissioned officers in the Militia when they were called upon to serve with the Regular Army. At present they only drew the pay of privates, although some of them were very valuable non-commissioned officers. He thought that, after a short period of probation, they should be allowed to receive the full pay of their respective ranks. MR. PARNELL asked for some information as to the fact that there appeared to be a decrease of about 3,000 in the rank and file of the Militia as compared with last year? COLONEL STANLEY said, the apparent decrease was, in fact, no decrease at all, and was due to the partial absorption of the regular Staff of the Militia into brigade depôts. As had been already stated, the amount of money received in the shape of fines for drunkenness had, on the recommendation of a Committee, been applied in the direction of recreation for the men by whom the fines had been paid. A Committee had just completed the consideration of the question as to the best means of utilizing the services of half-pay officers. The question was a very complicated one, and he had not at present had time to master the details of the Report. The matter should have his immediate attention, for he was anxious to hit upon some plan by which half-pay officers could be utilized in time of war. Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted, and 40 Members being found present, MR. PARNELL said, he thought the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War must have misunderstood the question which he had put to him with reference to the diminution in the rank and file of the Militia. That diminution amounted to 3,000 men, consisting of corporals and privates. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had referred him to page 132 of the Appendix, which contained an account of all the different brigade depôts at home and abroad; but he found, on consulting it, that the strength of the Militia in those depôts was only 64 men, and it was obvious that the withdrawal of 64 men from their regiments to brigade depôts would not account for the deficiency in the number of the Force for this year and last year, to which he had called the attention of the Committee. COLONEL STANLEY said, he was unable, at the present moment, to enter into any further details in explanation of the discrepancy to which the hon. Gentleman alluded, beyond the information which he had already given to the Committee. MR. PARNELL said, it was somewhat remarkable that while the number of the rank and file of the Militia had been reduced by 3,000 men last year, there was an increase from £181,000 to £207,000 this year in the amount asked for for bounties and new enrolments. Another very curious point connected with the matter was, that according to the statement set forth in page 48, which gave the details of the charges for clothing, the sum required for the purpose this year was put down as only £117,955, as against £212,555 last year; so that, with a Force smaller by 3,000, there was an increase for bounties and enrolment of £26,000, while the charge for clothing was less. He was afraid the |