that the passing of the measure would this kind, which he really believed to advance the object his hon. Friend the be approved, in the main, by all the local Member for South Norfolk had in view. | authorities in the Kingdom-men who He trusted the hon. Gentleman would were the most conversant with the subbe satisfied to assist in its further pro-ject, the most interested in the matter, gress, and he thought the time would and who would have to put the law into speedily arrive when the hon. Gentle- operation-had been defeated; and he man's views would admit of a more thought that his right hon. and hon. practical solution. He could say the Friends who were here to-day would same thing with regard to his right hon. best consult the objects they had at Friend the Member for the City of heart, as well as the wishes of the counLondon (Mr. J. G. Hubbard). His right try, by assisting the Government to go hon. Friend desired an improvement into Committee and shape a satisfactory in the assessment to the income tax; measure. He merely wished to introbut to adopt the Motion of his right duce by this Bill those amendments which hon. Friend at present would oblige were required in the law of rateable prothe Chancellor of the Exchequer to perty, and to remove the absurdities part with property tax on £20,000,000. which now prevailed of assessing the With all respect to his right hon. Friend, value of the same house and the same he must say he thought it unfair that a acre of land at three different figures measure which had for its object the uni- for taxing purposes. It was with the form valuation of the country should be hope that they should this day make hampered with a proposal relating to some progress in passing the clauses of the incidence of the income tax, with a Bill which was intended to remove which, prima facie, it had nothing to such absurdities that he now begged to do. An hon. Gentleman who repre- move that the Speaker do leave the sented the Scotch system of valuation Chair. (Mr. Ramsay) had also a proposal on the Paper to discharge the Order for Committee at present, and refer the matter to a Select Committee. He need not say that the Government would not for a moment entertain such a proposal, and they had some reason to complain that the hon. Member pressed his own measure before the House, having regard to the circumstances under which that measure was read a second time. A Morning Sitting had been devoted to it, and interesting speeches were made upon it; but he (Mr. Sclater-Booth) had no opportunity of replying to them; while a subsequent opportunity was taken of bringing on the Bill between a quarter to 6 and 6 o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon. However desirable it might be to begin a system ab initio of county administration as it existed in Scotland, there were many fatal practical objections to the measure. When the hon. Member moved his Motion, he should have an opportunity of replying to it. The House was aware of the great and increasing difficulties which the Go-mittees to the most complex and multivernment had to encounter in passing through Parliament a measure of extreme detail which was not of such a character as to excite a strong feeling in the country. The experience of the last three years had shown how a measure of

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Sclater-Booth.)

MR. B. T. WILLIAMS said, he wished to make a few observations which had struck him on reading the clauses of the Bill. The assessment committees, as far as his experience went, were composed of the men best able to form a correct valuation of the property in their neighbourhood. On the assessment committees with which he was connected were landed proprietors, land agents, colliery proprietors, and colliery engineers. Assessment committees composed of such men were the most likely to arrive at a correct valuation of the property with which they were immediately acquainted. The error of the Bill consisted in this, that it did not give due weight to the conclusions which might be arrived at by the assessment committees. The Bill subjected the deliberate decision of the assessment com

farious mode of correction and appeal. Even the committee itself was to be compelled by the provisions of the Bill to state a case for the opinion of the High Court of Justice. In addition, there was an appeal to the petty ses

much questioned it. The locality, like the wife, would be the weaker vessel, and the State, the stronger vessel, would very likely say to the locality-" What is yours is mine, and what is mine is my own."' He contended that the scheme, as it was proposed, would inflict considerable hardship upon the owners of property. He knew it was said that

had departed from the principle of the Resolution passed last year in favour of the establishment of County Boards. It was obvious that legislation on the subject of county government should precede any settlement of the question of valuation; but, in spite of that, the Government persisted in putting the cart before the horse; and if this and other kindred Bills were passed, the rate-taking rent as the basis was good for payers would have to wait a long time before obtaining that system of county government which they so greatly desired to see established. If the Government had sufficient time at their disposal, they had no right to abandon the County Government Bill. If they had not sufficient time to proceed with it, they ought not to fritter away their time in proceeding with a small measure like this, but to have proceeded with the Cattle Diseases Bill. They had been told that this Bill was the same as that brought forward some years ago. He thought it was the same principle as the Bill introduced by Mr. Hunt in 1868. It was no Government Bill at all. It was a Local Government Board special scheme. His right hon. Friend had renewed his argument in favour of the Bill by saying that Government subventions required a new arrangement of assessments. He could not understand that argument, because the Government subventions for the police and lunatics did not depend on assessment at all. He had wondered very much that hon. Gentlemen opposite did not oppose this Bill because of its centralizing tendencies. They objected to the Prisons Bill, under which the Government reduced the authority of the local magistrates to a nullity. They objected to that; but they had never said a word here, when the Government were introducing into every assessment committee in the Kingdom one of their own paid officials-the surveyor of taxes. He was not aware that there was any excuse for the State meddling in this matter. He always thought it was the duty of the locality to see that the rates were levied fairly, not to look after taxes. He always fancied that the matter of taxes was a duty between the individual taxpayer and the State; but now they were going to assist the State to levy the taxes, and the State was going to assist them in assessing the rates. That union might be productive of great good, but he very

Scotland, but that it was not good for
England? and some hon. Members had
said that there were a great many cheap
rents in England. He would like to
know where they were to be found.
Where was there most land unlet at
the present moment in Scotland and
England? Where did the greatest dis-
tress exist, and where was the profit
made in the last 20 years? He held
that the greatest profit was made by the
Scotch farmer, rather than in England.
When the Scotch farmer paid his rent,
he paid the most of his outgoings at the
same time. He had no tithes, and very
few rates. But in England, where a
man paid £1 an acre for arable land,
he had 10s._ or 12s. more to pay in
tithes, &c. It was proposed that rent
should be no longer the minimum; but
if they had a surveyor of taxes, then the
rent must be the minimum of assess-
ment. If rent were adopted as the
basis of rating, there would be few ap-
peals, and there would not be any great
necessity for the Amendment of which
he had given Notice. Rent was a fact
against which they could not appeal,
although they might multiply appeals
against opinions as to value. Let rent
be accepted, and then if a man went
before the assessment committee and
said-"My rent is 308. an acre, but I
do not think it ought to be assessed at
more than 208," the committee would
say-"As a fact you do pay 30s., and
that must be
It was
your assessment."
stated in the debate on the second
reading of the Scotch Valuation Bill,
that there had been only 122 appeals
since rent was made the basis of as-
sessment; but in England appeals were
being multiplied by hundreds and thou-
sands. Take rent as the basis, and ap-
peals would be simplified and reduced
in number. According to the Bill, there
would be first of all the assessment
committee, then the petty sessions, then
the quarter sessions, and then the Courts
of Law; but that was a roundabout way

MR. J. R. YORKE seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed,

end of the Question, in order to add the words "no re-adjustment of the system of assessment will be complete or satisfactory to ratepayers until a representative County Board is established, with power of hearing appeals on questions of value, and for securing uniformity of assessment,"-(Mr. Clare Read,) -instead thereof.

To leave out from the word "That" to the

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

of getting justice, and would compel the | tional advantage or satisfaction in the majority of poor ratepayers to put up county districts. The hon. Gentleman with any inequality. He would say concluded by moving the Amendment of that, if County Boards should come into which he had given Notice. existence, the only question to be entertained by a County Board should be one of value, and points of law should go direct to the High Court of Justice. Of course, a County Board would also enforce a uniform system of deductions. It was said that, if his Amendment were adopted, it would stop the Bill; but he did not think so at all. Though he was not in favour of it, he did not wish to stop it if there was a desire to pass it; and he should be quite content, for the present, with the suggested Amendments of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Rodwell) for a temporary County Valuation Board power, the chairmen or members of the different assessment committees. Too much power was still left to the surveyor of taxes, who must be a perpetual screw-jack, putting all up to a higher level, but never putting anyone down; and, possibly, doing injustice to many because some man chose to pay more for property than it was worth. There was, of course, ample opportunity for a cantankerous and litigious man to cause appeals to be made against every assessment in a county. There was no very urgent necessity for the Bill, which had been before the House for 10 or 12 years, and the assessment committees were doing their work fairly well, although the law left them too much discretion; but give them the principle of rent to go on, and then they would do their work better. It was boasted that the Government had abstained from harassing and annoying classes and individuals; but this Billing a measure based on the principle of would harass every assessment committee in the Kingdom. The Bill would really settle nothing; it would only be a temporary measure if it ever came into force; and it would be impossible to work it with that zest which was essential to good administration. It must be unpopular, because everyone whose assessment was raised would immediately say it was done by the surveyor of taxes, who was acting for the Government. The chief effect of the Bill would be to extract possibly more rates, and certainly more taxes, from the owners and occupiers of real property, without giving the slightest addi

Mr. Clare Read

MR. EVANS said, it had been his fate to sit on the hearing of many appeals, and never was any work so unsatisfactory to him. Whatever attention men of ordinary intelligence might give to the appeals, it was impossible to come to satisfactory conclusions. He had been sometimes inclined to say that as good a result might have been obtained by the tossing of a halfpenny; he therefore hoped there would be no increase in the number of appeals, unless a plan were devised of deciding them in a more satisfactory manner. He was much impressed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read), that the effect of this Bill would be to stave off legislation on the question of local government. The County Government Bill seemed to him to be a good one, and he should greatly regret if the passing of the Bill now before the House should have the effect of prevent

the County Government Bill becoming law. His own constituents had strong feelings in favour of such a measure, and were beginning to think the subject had been trifled with by successive Governments. He had no great objection to this Bill in itself, but he held that rental was the proper basis of value. There might have to be occasional exceptions, but rent would furnish the only satisfactory basis of value, for rent was a fact, while value was only an opinion.

MR. PARNELL said, that under the circumstances he did not intend to move his Amendment, believing it would be more convenient to discuss that of the