or members of Boards of Guardians relative to allowances to wives and children of the Army Reserve men who have been called into active service. (The Earl De La Warr.)

8

to Families of Reserve Men.
some support for the proposition that
the allowances granted to the wives and
children of men of the Reserve was not
sufficient, he might tell him that no such
allegations were made in any one of
the communications from Boards of
Guardians. He would not follow the

raised. As had been well remarked by
the noble Earl, the question of the suf-
ficiency or insufficiency of the provision
made for the wives and children of those
one which ought not to be
men was
decided off-hand, and on a side issue of
a very different kind. If the noble
Earl thought right to proceed with his
Motion, he (Viscount Bury) should pro-
pose to omit the words "or number of
Boards of Guardians," as some of these
gentlemen might object to the produc-
tion of what they might have written in
their individual capacity.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY
said, he was glad that his noble Friend
(Earl De La Warr) had called attention
to this matter. It was a very important
matter, and a large number of persons
were interested in it who had no one to
represent them either in that or the
other House of Parliament. No doubt,
cases of great hardship were not un-
common.

LORD RIBBLESDALE said, he knew, from his own observations, in the case of some men of the Reserve who were now under his command, a good deal of dis-noble Earl in the questions he had tress was felt by their families in the interval between the time the men left home-namely, the 19th of April, and the issue of the War Office Instructions of May 3rd for the payment of the separation allowance monthly in advance to their wives and children. He did not think that the wives and children of any of the Reserve men should be thrown on the parish by reason of the men having obeyed the call made on them; but it must be borne in mind that the wives of those men were in the same positionor, rather, were not in as bad a position -as would be the wives of men who were now serving with the colours if the latter were sent into the field. The men of the Reserve had, as the noble Earl had stated, been in good employment, and had had an opportunity of making some provision for their wives, which it was hardly possible, even with the greatest self-denial, for the married soldier Only that day a letter was to do when serving with the colours. The question was a rather difficult one, placed in his hands representing the and their Lordships should not come to condition of a very respectable family in a hasty decision with regard to it. It a small town of his diocese. The wife seemed to him, if anything extraordi- had lived in comparative comfort and nary was to be done for the wives of the affluence with her husband while he men of the Reserve, it ought to be out was at home; he had now obeyed of Imperial, and not out of parish funds. the call made on the Reserves, and The question was, however, one which the wife was left in a state of absoought to be considered carefully. Any off-lute destitution, and with her young hand opinions on it would be valueless. VISCOUNT BURY said, that if, after the explanation he was about to give, his noble Friend still pressed for the Papers, his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War would have no objection to their production; but he thought that his noble Friend, knowing what he was going to say to the House, ought to have framed his Motion rather differently. Only seven or eight Papers of the description of those referred to by his noble Friend had reached the War Office from Boards of Guardians, and not one of them touched the point which was the mainspring of his noble Friend's speech. If the noble Earl thought that in obtaining those Papers he would get

child was obliged either to starve or beg-the only other alternative was to apply to the parish. He hoped this was an exceptional case; but there could be very little doubt that, when the matter was fully stated, the Government and the country would be fully alive to the importance of the matter. Everything which threw light on the question was most important. What could be more detrimental to the public service than that the idea should spread among the labouring class that when they were willing to serve their country-as it must be admitted they were-the country was indifferent to the sufferings of those near and dear to them? He did not believe that either the Government or the country was really indifferent to

them; but the labouring classes had no knowledge of what was being done in the matter, and everything which threw light on the circumstances would do good as tending to dissipate an impression which certainly, to some extent, and not unnaturally prevailed, and which was calculated to do a great injury to the public service.

THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE wished to express his opinion that this question was a most important one-no doubt, it was a difficult question also. He, for one, thought that when men came forward, through a sense of duty, and in response to the call of their Sovereign, their families ought to be supported. He had never been more distressed than on hearing that some of the wives and children of the Reserve men would be obliged to seek parochial relief; and it had even been suggested that the wives of men of the Reserves, who could not support themselves and their children, should have the workhouse test applied to them. He objected altogether to such treatment. What was needful should be done direct by the Government, and he could not for a moment suppose that objections to that course would be raised on either side of the House of Commons. He could not doubt the feeling of the House and the country; but the question was a difficult, delicate, and intricate one, and would require very careful consideration. The cases were very different. The circumstances of the families of some of those men were good; those of others of them were comparatively bad. No hasty decision in the matter ought to be come to; but he hoped that, whatever was decided to be done, it would be done by a grant from Parliament, to be carried out by Government officers, and not by the parochial authorities.

VISCOUNT CARDWELL said, he had heard the tone of this conversation with great pleasure. It was impossible to suppose that the Government and the country could have any ungenerous feelings in the matter; but he fully agreed in the remark that it would be imprudent of Parliament or the Government to express itself hastily on the subject. It was quite clear that this question must come under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. It was as yet in its infancy, and a reasonable time must be allowed for

due consideration how the emergency could best be met. He sincerely trusted that what the illustrious Duke had said would be borne in mind, and that no man's wife or children would be so dealt with that they or he should be regarded as paupers by reason of the fulfilment on his part of this honourable obligation to the Crown. At the same time, it must be remembered, also, that when they established the Reserve they made an important change. Under the former state of things, the theory was that the Army was a celibate Army. The permissions to soldiers serving in the ranks to marry were very few, and their position was exceptional; but when they invited 60,000 or 80,000 men to go into the Reserve, while giving the Government power to call on them to return to the standards in case of need, they virtually invited them to enter civil life, to marry, and to maintain themselves. A great many difficult questions naturally followed. At first, the number entering the Reserve were few-they were now increasing in considerable numbers year by year, and the question, therefore, was becoming of more and more importance. He was willing to believe that the Government would deal with the matter in a just, fair, and generous spirit; but he hoped that nothing would be done hastily. He thought the premature publication of isolated and, as yet, unconsidered cases of hardship might be mischievous, and could do no possible good. What the country would want to know was not what complaints had arisen, but how these complaints had been dealt with and redressed. He was willing to repose confidence in the Government, believing that its proposals would be generous, and such as to meet the necessities of the case.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK said, that although, in his opinion, the allowances were sufficient in the majority of cases, no doubt, there had been cases of hardship. The question was a difficult one, and careful inquiries should be made to test the statements of women representing themselves to be wives of men of the Reserve.

LORD WAVENEY was understood to suggest that a voluntary effort to assist the wives and families of the Reserve men ought to be encouraged.

THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD hoped that his noble Friend would withdraw his

Motion for the production of the Papers. The subject was one of a very interesting character. It had already engaged the attention of the Government, and, indeed, of the country. One change had already been made. The wives and children of the men of the Reserve were now receiving money in advance instead of in arrear-which, of course, was an advantage, and which showed that the matter was one to which the Government were not indifferent. The production of the Papers asked for by his noble Friend would lead to a false impression, and, therefore, he hoped his noble Friend would not press for them.

Motion (by leave of the House)

drawn.

Railway Bill

. M. BROOKS said, he felt it an imperative, but disagreeable and painful, duty to move that the second reading of the Bill be postponed until that day six months. He was induced to take this course from peculiar circumstances. Most English Members of Parliament had been in Ireland, and the majority of them travelled by way of Holyhead and Kingstown, passing in their way over a short section of railway, about six miles in length, from Kingstown to Dublin. Most of them, therefore, had an opportunity of judging whether that line was well or badly managed. He was of opinion-and he was fortified in that opinion by the dewith-claration of the great majority of the

House adjourned at Six o'clock,
till To-morrow, half past
Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Thursday, 16th May, 1878.

-VisMINUTES.]- NEW MEMBERS SWORN count Lewisham, for Western Division of the County of Kent; Benjamin Thomas Williams, esquire, for Borough of Carmarthen. SUPPLY -considered in Committee - CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, Class II. PRIVATE BILL (by Order) - Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway, 2o.

*

PUBLIC BILLS-Ordered-First Reading-Under
Secretaries of State* [181]; Lord Clerk Re-
gister (Scotland) [182].
Second Reading-General Police and Improve-
ment Provisional Order (Paisley) [170];
Local Government Provisional Orders (Bir-
mingham, &c.) * [165]; Public Health (Scot-
land) Provisional Order (Lochgelly) * [171].
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on
Committee -
Sunday (Ireland) [44]—R.P.
Third Reading-Acknowledgment of Deeds by
Married Women (Ireland) [173], and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

DUBLIN, WICKLOW, AND WEXFORD
RAILWAY BILL.-[Lords.]-(by Order.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The Earl of Beaconsfield

citizens of Dublin-that the line had been
mismanaged in a manner that reflected
great discredit upon the Directors-most
of them respectable, intelligent, and
wealthy persons-and so mismanaged
that it had materially injured the trade
and property of the inhabitants of the
district. Such being his opinion, he had
felt it his duty, early in the Session, to
call the attention of the Board of Trade
to the subject, and to request them to
institute an inquiry. The Board of
Trade, accordingly, sent down Major-
General Hutchinson, one of the Rail-
way Inspectors of the Board, to the City
of Dublin. That gentleman had made
an inquiry, and had presented a Report, a
copy of which he (Mr. Brooks) held in his
hand, and which he would read in part.
It was better, he thought, that he should
take the observations of Major-General
Hutchinson, rather than offer his own
He had, however,
view of the facts.
found it impossible to devise any means
for rectifying the abuses under which the
citizens of Dublin suffered, except by an
appeal to Parliament, fortified by a Re-
port from the Board of Trade; because
no Committee sitting upstairs upon the
present Bill could deal with the ques-
tion, as no one would have any locus
standi before it. The Board of Trade
had no power to deal with anything
affecting simply the comfort of the pas-
sengers, and had no power to revise the
fares, however excessive they might be.
Neither the Board of Trade, nor any
other public authority, had any power
to compel the Railway Company to im-
prove the railway carriages, no matter
how discreditable they were. The Board
of Trade had, however, placed in his

14

hands a copy of the Report of Major- | ham, and Dover, £7 108.; and upon a General Hutchinson as to the condition line at Belfast, of a somewhat similar of things on the line between Dublin and suburban character, while the secondKingstown. Major-General Hutchinson class subscription ticket between Dublin held his inquiry on the 30th of March, and Kingstown was £12, between Beland he reported that the stations be- fast and Bangor, for the same distance, tween Dublin and Kingstown-namely, it was only £8. The Dublin, Wicklow, Lansdowne Road, Sidney Parade, Boot- and Wexford Company were established erstown, and Blackrock-were one and in the year 1848, and in 1856 they oball deficient in that accommodation as re- tained a lease of the Dublin and Kingsgarded waiting-rooms, water-closets, and town line. They obtained it on terms platform-shelters, which might reason- stated in the Preamble of their Bill— ably be expected upon a railway having a that if they obtained the lease, they large suburban traffic. Major-General would work the line more beneficially Hutchinson pointed out that at Lans- for the public. They obtained the lease downe Road the shelter on the down plat- on this understanding, and they immeform consisted of an open shed; at Boot-diately raised the fares, one and all, inerstown there was no ladies' waiting- stead of reducing them; and the result room, although it was the most important was, that whereas the old Dublin and station between Dublin and Kingstown. Kingstown Company were able to pay Not only was there no ladies' waiting- a dividend of 10 per cent upon the low room, but there were no water-closets and moderate and reasonable fares or urinal, and the platform at all of the which they exacted, while happily for stations, with the exception of Lans- the citizens of Dublin they had the madowne Road, varied from 19 inches to nagement of the line, the Company pro22 inches above the rail levels. Most moting the present Bill were able, by of the carriages had only one step, so raising the fares, to extract from the that infirm persons experienced consi- unfortunate persons who lived on the derable difficulty in stepping in and out line such further sums as enabled the of the carriages. It was hardly neces- two Companies to divide upon their capisary to remind the House that within tal the enormous dividend of 17 per the last few days one of the oldest and cent. Under the old system there was most respected Members of the House a return ticket of 6d. issued in the morncame to an untimely death on account of ing to workmen. The new management the defective arrangements at one of abolished this return ticket, and inthe London stations. Yet this was one creased the second-class return ticket of those defects which was capable of from 18. to 1s. 2d. Major-General Hutchvery easy remedy. In addition, there inson concluded his Report by stating were no bridges or subways for commu- that whereas, under the Act of 1856, by nicating from one platform to the other, which the present Company leased the and, according to the Report of Major- Dublin and Kingstown line, they were General Hutchinson, this formed a constant source of danger, particularly at ments for the public service, they had, to make more advantageous arrangeBooterstown, where the up and down in fact, exacted fares which, especially trains stopped simultaneously, and very for season tickets, were unreasonably frequently. The complaint he had made high. Major-General Hutchinson further to the Board of Trade was under various stated that the complaints with regard heads. One related to the accommodation to the want of reasonable accommodaat the different stations, and another to tion of small-sized stations and the the excessive amount of the fares. Major- height of the platforms were wellGeneral Hutchinson stated that, whilst founded; and, seeing that the Company upon the Dublin and Kingstown Railway were in a prosperous condition, the pub-a line six miles in length-the second-lic had a right to expect accommodation class subscription ticket was £12, the sub- of a superior class and character. The seription for a similar distance on the Company were now seeking to extend London and North-Western Railway their powers; and he (Mr. Brooks) asked was only £7; on the London, Brighton, that Parliament should refer the comand South Coast, £6 1 08., or 45 per cent plaint of Major-General Hutchinson less; on the Great Eastern, £7 108.; the and of the citizens of Dublin either to Great Northern, £7; the London, Chat- the Board of Trade, or to some indepen

15

dent authority, which should decide that, | For his own part, he did not think they in acceding to the present project, there ought to stop a public work that would should be some assurance on the part be, on the whole, beneficial to the counof the Company that they would miti- try, because the Company who were progate the grievances of which Major- moting the Bill had been in other reGeneral Hutchinson complained. He spects negligent, and had not considered begged to move that the Bill be read the interests of the City of Dublin. Although he generally acted with his hon. a second time on that day six months. Friend the Member for Dublin, he could not agree with him on this occasion, but would support the second reading of the Bill.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now," ," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."-(Mr. Maurice Brooks.) Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

SIR GEORGE BOWYER, as Member for the County of Wexford, thought it was necessary that he should explain the reasons which induced him to oppose the Motion. The objections which had been urged by the hon. Member for Dublin did not touch the principle of the Bill, and were such as could be best dealt with when the Bill came before a Committee upstairs. The hon. Member had not said a word against the second reading of the Bill; and he therefore hoped the House would pursue the course which was usually taken in these cases, and read the Bill a second time, leaving its provisions to be considered by a Select Committee.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA could not concur in the views of the hon. Member for Dublin, who had moved the rejection of the Bill, and quite agreed with the hon. Baronet opposite, that most of the questions which had been referred to by his hon. Friend were questions for the consideration of a Committee upstairs He was rather than for the House. sorry to add, however, that it would not be within the province of a Committee upstairs to consider all these questions. While he hoped the Bill would be read a second time, he had no desire that it should be read under the impression that the matters complained of which affected the Dublin and Wicklow traffic could be remedied by a Committee upstairs. The object of the Bill was to enable the Company promoting it to make a continuation of their line from New Ross to Waterford; and he thought it would be altogether a mistake to prevent the only Company which was able to do this from carrying out that work because another complaint, upon an entirely different matter, had been made against them.

Mr. M. Brooks

MAJOR O'GORMAN expressed a hope that his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin would withdraw his opposition to the Bill. He had never in his life heard a weaker argument than the one which his hon. Friend had brought forward. The Bill was promoted by the Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Company. It was originated in the House of Lords, and it had gone through every stage required by the Standing Orders of both Houses of Parliament. It had been twice referred to the Examiners of Private Bills, and had been passed by them, notwithstanding opposition and the complaint that the Standing Orders had not been complied with. It had been referred by the House of Lords to a Select Committee, by whom it had been carefully considered before it was passed and reported. His hon. Friend appeared to have completely lost sight of the main object of the Bill, which was to construct a new line. His hon. Friend, he hoped unintentionally, had endeavoured to throw dust in the The object of eyes of the House. the Bill was to construct a line, which was urgently required in the public interests, extending from the town of New Ross to the Waterford and Dungarvan Railway terminus in the City of Waterford. If the opposition to the measure were successful, no railway could be made between these two important towns. And, in regard to that opposition, so far as the inconveniences now sustained in connection with the Dublin and Kingstown line were concerned, he was authorized to say that a contract had already been entered into for the building of a new station at Westland Row, which would cost £75,000. He was free to confess that the present station at Westland Row was disgraceful; but after the £75,000 had been spent upon it, it would not be The Company were also about so.