Senator JOHNSON. Our next witness is Dr. H. Guyford Stever, Chairman, National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics Special Committee on Space Technology, and associate dean of engineering, MIT.

I ask consent to insert Dr. Stever's biography in the record at this point.

(The biography referred to is as follows:)

BIOGRAPHY, DR. H. GUYFORD STEVER, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF ENGINEERING, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

Dr. Stever was born in Corning, N. Y., on October 24, 1916. He received his AB from Colgate University in 1938 and his Ph. D. from the California Institute of Technology in 1941.

He was a staff member at MIT from 1941 to 1942, and associate professor from 1946 to 1951, associate professor from 1951 to 1955. He became professor of aeronautical engineering in 1955 and now holds the position of associate dean of engineering. He is also Chairman of the NACA Space Committee.

He was a liaison officer for the ORSD from 1942 to 1945, consultant to the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1945 and member of the Research and Development Board from 1946 to 1948. He has been a member of the Air Force Science Advisory Board since 1947 and Vice Chairman since 1956.

He is a fellow of the Institute of Aeronautical Sciences, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Physical Society, and is a member of Phi Beta Kappa, and Sigma Xi.

Senator JOHNSON. I have an important meeting at 11:30, and I have asked some of my associates to preside in the event I am called away, so Dr. Stever, I hope you will understand that it is no discourtesy to you.

Dr. STEVER. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON. I have other duties to which I must attend. Dr. Stever, do you care to make a statement on this bill to the committee?

Dr. STEVER. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF H. GUYFORD STEVER, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF ENGINEERING, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, AND CHAIRMAN, SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON SPACE TECHNOLOGY, NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR AERONAUTICS Dr. STEVER. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, and counsel; in laying the groundwork for our Government's major venture in astronautics and space technology, as this committee is helping to do, the most important consideration, I believe, is that this activity will be of long duration and of growing importance. Man's interest in the physical universe outside this earth and his desire to explore this earth

Senator JOHNSON. Dr. Stever, I'm having a little difficulty following you.

Dr. STEVER. I'm sorry.

Man's desire to explore that universe is very old and very intense. A member of a great senate long ago, Cicero, the great Roman lawyer and statesman, was interested in this subject and, in fact, wrote about it.

Man's capability to explore physically and to send scientific apparatus well out into space is something which has been realized only in our generation. As this capability develops, I am sure his interest

will grow even stronger, as it has in the past. Because of all this, I believe we must plan an organization capable of giving us strength over many years, an organization capable of marked growth. I believe that we must not be overly influenced by the desire to do something spectacular on a short-term basis. We must lay a strong foundation, both organizationally and technically.

The phases of astronautics and space exploration activities which have yielded returns are the scientific and military phases. You are well aware of the rapid exploitation of these techniques in military technology, so I will not detail them. I am confident that this military exploration should and will continue, and that from it not only will come increased military strength, but also knowledge, techniques, and equipment which can be used for our nonmilitary space activity. Our nonmilitary space program, though not controlled by the military, should be in close contact with it for mutual exchange of ideas, data, techniques, equipment, and even bases.

With respect to scientific research, both to learn more about the physical universe outside the confines of the earth and to use this cosmic laboratory for a better understanding of the physical laws which govern physical processes here on the earth as well, these rocket techniques are unfolding a wealth of interesting possibilities. This scientific research, already well started, should grow apace.

What of the other nonmilitary aspects of astronautics and space exploration? Already we have seen some simple engineering ventures of practical use involving communication relay stations and weather observation stations on satellites. Also, physical exploration of the solar system is something to begin in a limited way. There are some other long-term and highly imaginative accomplishments of space flight which are speculated on by some. Personally, I believe that there will evolve many important uses of these techniques of space flight as we develop our capabilities in the field, though I am not one to attempt to predict these in detail at the present time.

Much has been made of the argument as to whether we should immediately start sending men into space either on satellites or on moon rockets. On manned space flight, it is my feeling that we still have a long way to go on two counts. In the first place, we will not be sure until we have performed a substantial amount of experimentation how difficult it is to put a man out there and return him safely. In the second place, we are not yet sure why we want a man to go. Certainly, much of our scientific experimentation and, in fact, some rather distant space exploration can be done without involving manned space flight. I do believe that there are enough possibilities in the long-term future, both in military and nonmilitary ventures, for a man to be needed in space flight, that preliminary experimentation is justified. Of course, the country that first puts a man out there will gain prestige. However, if the choice is necessary, I would sacrifice early prestige for long-term strength.

There are several kinds of activities which might be conducted simultaneously in order to develop our capabilities optimally. In scientific laboratories, we must conduct research and develop equipment to perform the scientific experiments in space. In engineering laboratories, we must work on the techniques and the technical field which we must master before we can perform vastly more complicated flight into space. The flight work which we conduct must have at

least two purposes: First, to provide the vehicles for the transportation of scientific apparatus to whatever stations in space they must reach to perform the experiments; and, second, to develop and test new vehicles and flight techniques.

In considering the organization and program to accomplish all this, you must first note where our capabilities lie. Personally, I am one who believes that this country has very strong capabilities in this field and that our scientific, engineering, and industrial people will respond quickly to this challenge.

There are several sources of this needed talent. In the first place, within the Government we have the NACA with its laboratories and flight stations-Redstone Arsenal, and a large number of others, all of which have already conducted some important experimental work. There are other Government laboratories which have participated in the program of scientific experiment--the Naval Research Laboratory, the Air Force Geophysics Laboratory, and others.

There are a large number of university scientific laboratories which have been involved in scientific experiments. And, finally, we have strong industrial concerns interested primarily in the vehicle developments, but which in fact have expanded their interests and strengths quite a bit beyond.

The Government organization set up to handle astronautics and space exploration must tap all of these strengths.

Without going into great detail on the possible organizations to do this job, let me say for several reasons I favor the use of NACA as a nucleus of a new organization to conduct our nonmilitary work in astronautics and space exploration.

In the first place, the NACA laboratories have already done and are continuing to do a great deal of work in this field, particularly in research on flight techniques. One cannot divide technical fields, and I believe that all of the problems of flight stretching over the spectrum from the low speed, low altitude flight in the atmosphere, to those of very high speed, high altitude flight outside of the atmosphere, are best solved in a single agency encompassing them all.

In the second place, NACA's relationship with the National Science Foundation and the National Academy of Sciences, and the scientific community at large, is such that they can use important scientific research capabilities outside of their own organization.

In the third place, NACA has a longstanding, close relationship with the military organizations. There is a great overlap in the military and the nonmilitary uses of equipment for space exploration and experimentation. The new organization can use these well-founded relationships: First, to help the military solve its problems; and, second, to help itself by occasionally using military equipment.

It is important to consider this a new organization rather than an expanded NACA, for it must have a capability to contract with industry and academic institutions on a scale far larger than NACA has had in the past.

Finally, there is one important point which is fundamental to this entire operation. It is a point which is more general than just space technology. It has to do with the delegation of authority and responsibility once the program is decided upon.

In those stages in which we are now-essentially discovering what our objectives are, what our organization should be, and what general

program should be followed-I think it is important to tap all of the ideas from all sources.

As we begin to carry out this program, we must continue to tap these ideas from capable organizations and individuals to find out what experiments to perform and to discover new techniques.

But, having decided upon an experiment or a program of experiments, a program of flights, I believe it is essential that the responsibility and authority be delegated to the working technical level. A very complicated superstructure of detailed technical management within the Government, I believe, has seriously hampered some of our most important projects in space technology to date.

I believe that the leaders within the current NACA understand this fundamental requirement for rapid progress in a technical venture. Finally, I would like to give two reasons why I believe that the nonmilitary uses of space should be controlled by a civilian agency rather than the military agencies.

In the first place there is the reason that was given by Dr. Dryden: we should prove to the world that we are really interested in science for science's sake and for science to lay the foundation for long-term nonmilitary technical applications.

In the second place, I believe the Department of Defense has several space problems which are of such difficulty and on which so little progress has yet been made, that it will take all of their capabilities to master them.

Thank you.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much, Dr. Stever.

RESPONSIBILITY OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

Doctor, I have a few questions.

The first one is: In your judgment does this bill adequately provide for the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense in connection with its responsibility to develop weapons systems, involving the use of outer space?

Dr. STEVER. Sir, I have not studied the bill in enough detail and I am not familiar enough with the legal procedures which must be gone through to insure this. I do know that cooperation must be very strong between them. I do know that the Department of Defense has some very important space technology programs over which they must have jurisdiction. But I believe that they should not have sole jurisdiction over the space program.

DECISION MAKING POWERS

Senator JOHNSON. Do you think the bill adequately provides sufficient power to make decisions for the rapid development of nonmilitary space systems?

Dr. STEVER. By the new Agency; yes.

INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION

Senator JOHNSON. Do you believe the proposed legislation makes ample provision for international cooperation on nonmilitary space exploration?

Dr. STEVER. Again, I have not, primarily because of the lack of time, gone into the provisions of the bill on this point. I think that it is important if we are to accomplish the first objective which I stated, namely to prove to the world that we are interested in and will lead in the nonmilitary uses of space.

WEAPONS SYSTEMS RESEARCH

Senator JOHNSON. Should military weapons involving the use of outer space be researched to the stage of design development outside the Department of Defense?

Dr. STEVER. Should military weapons be designed?

I believe that military weapons should be designed within the Department of Defense or by contract to the Department.

Senator JOHNSON. Is it desirable to have a separate agency from the Department of Defense vested with total research power over all space systems, military and nonmilitary?

Dr. STEVER. No, sir; I believe that the military systems should be under the Department of Defense and the nonmilitary systems should be under the space agency, and that the overlap between them-and this should be recognized to be great, involving research, ideas, techniques, equipment, bases, and so on-must be handled some way.

DETERMINATION OF PROJECTS AND SPACE POLICY

Senator JOHNSON. Under this bill who would determine which agency would handle which projects?

Dr. STEVER. Well, as I read the bill-again I am only repeating what I have just heard from Dr. Dryden-most of the cases presumably would be treated by mutual agreement; those that were not, would be referred to the President.

Senator JOHNSON. Where under the bill do you believe the determination of national space policy would take place: in the Department of Defense or in the new Space Agency?

Dr. STEVER. I think that this is a very important thing which must be looked to. There are a number of activities in space in which a national space policy would have to be developed.

For example, in our NACA space technology committee, we have recognized as a serious problem the surveillance of space; that is, keeping track of all of the experimental equipment and military vehicles up there. The responsibility for this must be worked out in more detail.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you endorse the bill as written and urge its approval?

Dr. STEVER. Yes, sir.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you very much, Doctor.

Senator Saltonstall? Senator Saltonstall is the ranking member. But, since he must also leave shortly, I will ask Senator Mundt if he would preside. I have an 11:30 meeting.

noon.

I would like to announce we will not convene until 2:30 this afterWe have a White House meeting at noon and I know I cannot be here before 2:30. If I am a little late, I will ask any member who may be here to go ahead and open the meeting. Senator Saltonstall, do you plan to be here this afternoon?