Some of them will idle and fool around during this time, but that happens now.

But a great many of them will get a great deal of benefit out of it. Senator KILGORE. One other question, Mr. Mayor, right on that line:

In some States after the last war in the rehabilitation of veterans, I feel that we made a terrible mistake in that, to give them vocational training, we practically made an apprentice system in factories in which boys not only went in there competing but in a large number of cases were just used as common labor and learned nothing.

Don't you think a better method is vocational schools, where they are actually taught, rather than an apprentice system in a plant? Mr. LAGUARDIA. I am afraid you have started me off on something. I think at this time a new technique has developed for the exploitation of labor and for the depressing of wages.

In my city a technique has developed a part-time employment that is the most disgraceful situation that I have ever seen.

You take the American Railway Express, they just have hundreds of city employees who are being taught the technique of how to sleep on their city jobs.

That and child labor we are watching out for.

We have regular surveys, and when the school closes we are going to intensify the activities of our child-labor law.

That is exactly what will happen here. And I have this marked on page 32, you have got a joker-I know it was unintentional-but every possible safeguard ought to be made.

Otherwise you are subsidizing employers who pay substandard wages, and putting the honest employer in an unfair situation competing with such an employer.

Now, that happened during relief time. You see advertisements in the New York papers: "Wanted, part-time workers, unskilled workers, women on artificial flowers, light industry."

I put my foot down on it, because they would employ these people at substandard wages. Two of them would deprive one of a full-time job; and our relief rolls were piling up, and we were subsidizing the employers paying substandard wages.

That is happening now with Government employees. It is a fertile field for it.

Well, we have discovered cases, gentlemen, where a city employee works 8 hours for the city and 8 hours for a private employer, 16 hours a day.

How they get from one place to another, I haven't determined yet. We have discovered cases where they were on the time sheet at two places at the same time.

And the cost-plus fellow is the one that was chiseling, he didn't care. No; this part-time thing can be very vicious.

Senator KILGORE. I am glad you brought it up.

I ran into one city recently where a taxi owner of a big fleet of cabs told me he was gradually employing all the firemen of the city. I don't see how those firemen can do a good job as firemen and work and 8-hour shift on a taxi too.

Mr. LAGUARDIA. I have put my foot down in New York City and I am having the fight of my life on that.

The benefits ought to be sufficient to permit a minimum subsistence existence, and there of course you have to take into consideration the condition in various parts of the country.

Now, in large cities they must have shelter and they must have light and they must have gas for cooking; that forms a substantial part of the minimum requirement, and that ought to be considered; because if we just put that down to mere existence, then you have destroyed your whole purpose.

Legislation should be enacted without any further delay. The time may come when we would be very much embarrassed if we had not taken every necessary legislative protection.

No one would venture to guess when the war will end, not this kind of a war. I personally believe that some day we will wake up and we will find a blow-up in Germany, at the top. A blow-up in Germany will come at the top, not from the bottom. That general staff knows exactly where they stand. The most significant success I think recently has been in getting after their source of supply of oil. They are going to feel that. When the chessman is playing chess a good player can tell five or six moves in advance that he is going to be checked, and he is ready.

The one man who won't know is Hitler, and I think they will take care of him.

Whatever happens, whether it lasts 6 months or 6 weeks or 6 years, we must be prepared to just move right into a new situation, just as Eisenhower was prepared and knew exactly where he was going to land, exactly how many men he was going to put there, knew exactly what he had back of him.

It is not difficult if we approach it courageously, but if we try to satisfy one group against another, if we fail to take the whole economy, look at it as a whole, one complete picture, we will mess it up.

And, gentlemen, if it is messed up this time, we are going to have a very sorrowful period. People are thinking differently. The boys in the Army are thinking differently.

We all get mail from youngsters we know, they are thinking of one thing, a job when they come home, of living decently, of a family. We have been talking that to the entire world. We have to be able to show the world that we can do it. And it will cost so much less if we do it constructively, timely, than if we delay and have to slap something together as we did in the days of W. P. A. relief.

Senator WALLGREN. Of course this war is a long way from being over at that. You have to consider the Pacific.

Mr. LAGUARDIA. All the more reason we should be ready.

Senator KILGORE. Mr. Mayor, if both Japan and Germany should surrender tomorrow unconditionally, under our present set-up wouldn't we just about face chaos in the United States?

Senator WALLGREN. I don't think you need to worry about Japan. Senator KILGORE. I am not worrying, but if we do not have the plans will we not have a chaotic condition?

Mr. LAGUARDIA. Let us say in a year from now; we would still be in a very difficult situation unless we were prepared.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murray, do you care to

Senator MURRAY. Well, I have listened with a great deal of interest and respect to the statements made by the mayor. I am sorry that I

98534-44-pt. 8— 4

wasn't here at the opening of the hearing to hear his full statement.
I am sure that he has covered a problem we have to consider in his
usual inimitable way and I promise I am going to read it over carefully.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Kilgore?
Senator KILGORE. No questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Wallgren?
Senator WALLGREN. No questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pepper?

Senator PEPPER. Only this, Mr. Chairman:

There are some who constantly think that all ills will right themselves if the Government has nothing to do with it, if private forces are allowed to operate in their own way.

Is it your belief that any such miracle could occur as would bring all the economic forces into such equilibrium as would adequately meet this challenge, without some agency public in character acting as a coordinator and the leader in bringing it all about so that favorable conditions will arise?

Mr. LAGUARDIA. Senator, our country never got into a worse mess than during a period when there was the least Government interference with business, industry, and banking.

I served in the House during that period from '22 to '32. Business and banking and industry had their way in everything they wanted, and they got themselves and our country into the worst mess, one that was as costly as a war.

And what happened?

When the whole thing tumbled down, they were the ones who came to Washington; they were the ones who got the relief first. I was here. I was here.

Old friends of mine in New York who always said "no interference of Government," they were here saying "oh, Mr. Congressman, Mr. Congressman, something is going to happen."

Banks going like that, one right after the other; the whole thing piling up; no control, no supervision; all sorts of worthless securities peddled on the American people; factory after factory closing. They had their way.

And they came in, and the first bill passed in the last year of the Hoover administration, where the R. F. C. was created, was to give relief to industry, to finance.

There wasn't a dollar in there for unemployment.

Senator WALLGREN. Where are they now?

Mr. LAGUARDIA. Now? The Government is taking care of them. You cannot do it otherwise. It has to be done orderly-I say orderly; constructively. There is no other agency. You leave them to themselves and nothing will happen. I know them. I live with them.

You talk to some who say, "How about this?" "Oh, let us win the war first." That is because they haven't the capacity to think the thing through. You know, some people think they are bankers when they are only pawnbrokers, really.

I happened to be the mayor of my town when this thing broke. And not one single, original idea came from them during that period.

Not one.

You cannot stop it. So we might as well do it; do a good job. Senator WALLGREN. But those same people today are crying for no Government interference.

Mr. LAGUARDIA. Yes.

Senator WALLGREN. They want to go through the grill again.
Mr. LAGUARDIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mayor, one moment please.

Mr. Mayor, I have listened to you with a great deal of interest, and your observations have certainly been of great benefit to the members of this committee.

It isn't difficult for any of us to realize that you have given a great deal of thought to this very important question, for which we as members of the committee are entirely grateful, and I think that the American people are appreciative to you for the time and thought you have given to it.

I want to ask you one question: Aside from the program that you have outlined for after-the-war employment, have you given any thought to the question of public works for the Nation, such as the construction of coast-to-coast highways, or highways of a dual nature from Canada to Mexico; the development of airports and the development of water ports or other public structures that would be of, you might say, primary and final benefit to the Nation as a whole from a transportation standpoint?

Mr. LAGUARDIA. Well, Congress has already provided, as in the highway bill passed, for a generous grant to the States and subdivisions for highways.

There is your Federal Public Works program, and that has been woefully neglected. There is so much to be done, and that kind of work is really good work. And your waterways and reclamations and irrigations, that is part of the Federal Public Works program, and it should be started right away.

The CHAIRMAN. I am very glad to have your views upon that. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Mayor. It is nice to see you again.

Gentlemen of the committee, I have word here to the effect that the American Federation of Labor witnesses could not get here because of their plane having been grounded and that they are requesting permission to have their written statement inserted in the record as a part of the hearing.

I am confident there will be no objection to that and I will ask the reporter to make it a part of this morning's record.

(The statement referred to was not supplied in time for inclusion in this print.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rosenberg.

Mr. ROSENBERG. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Plant manager of the Electronics Corporation, New York City.

Mr. Rosenberg, we are glad to have you with us. We will be very glad to hear you.

Mr. ROSENBERG. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF HENRY M. ROSENBERG, PLANT MANAGER, ELECTRONICS CORPORATION OF AMERICA, NEW YORK CITY

Mr. ROSENBERG. Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, members of the committee, I am the production engineer and assistant plant manager of Electronics Corporation of America. My knowledge of the intricacies of lawmaking is very small, but I have some knowledge of production and what is going on in the small plants in New York, particularly in the electronics field; and I am prepared merely to tell you of our unemployment in Electronics Corporation of America, what the absence of planning in contract termination and reconversion has done to us, what might happen to industry now, and what, based on our experience, we should like to see.

First, let me tell you something about our company.

Electronics Corporation of America is comprised of some 250 men and women.

We are engaged in a 100-percent war work. We manufacture vital secret equipment for the United States Signal Corps and for the United States Navy.

Every member of our company is extremely proud that he happens to belong to it, because our production records have gone up in leaps and bounds with almost every month.

We are particularly proud because our production records have been attained not through management whip-snapping or blustering on the part of management, but through excellent labor-management

relations.

The labor-management committee in our plant helps me with my planning.

I might say here at this point that my duties and responsibilities are to plan production to meet the war schedules; to determine what equipment and man-hours are necessary to make the units for the Army or Navy; and to lay out the production lines to do that work.

Our labor-management committee in weekly meetings analyzes and discusses with management the schedules, methods of production, technical processes, and any problems that might arise. And from these discussions and analyses we get to work and turn out the goods. In the past 8 months we have increased our production some 50 percent.

This we have done without materially increasing our crew.

We have done this through the wholehearted cooperation of the labor-management committee that seeks to instill in these 250 men and women the importance of the war effort at our plant.

And so we in our little plant are cognizant of what planning means. The Electronics Corporation of America leads in other fields. I think, proportionate for its size, the members of our company douated more blood to the Red Cross than any other company in the country. And we have oversubscribed to all the war loans. And our production records are leading ones in the electronics field.

The mayor mentioned something about returning soldiers not being able to acclimate themselves to production work after the war.

Our labor-management committee have been trying to make sure that we get our quotas, see to it that these men are given some sort of consideration, sent to some sort of schools.