Senator REVERCOMB. To extend the idea that you have discussed, there are agencies, so-called, within Government, that have been created solely by Congress, other than those mentioned by Senator McCarran. I have in mind the Federal Power Commission, the Federal Communications Commission.

Considering the subject dealt with by these agencies, do you not think that it would be dangerous to permit a situation to exist in which any Executive would be in a position to reorganize those agencies in such a way

Mrs. STONE (interposing). Well, I think the Congress has a double safeguard both in the veto of the legislation and also in support of the appropriations of these agencies.

Senator REVERCOMB. Well, that would mean cutting them off from existence by cutting off their money. They want to continue to live and function. But the thought I have in mind, and which I would like to have your views upon-suppose, in the reorganization, a bill is passed here in the Congress stating that we will turn over to the Chief Executive reorganizations of these parts of Government-these tribunals, you might almost say, that are independent and form their own policies of decision and Congress now turns them over to the Executive so that it may be said that these are now under the Executive.

Do you think that is dangerous?

Mrs. STONE. Well, of course, I do not think that you gentlemen would ever permit that to happen.

Senator REVERCOMB. If the court were to make a decision in the future and say: Congress, in 1945, having control over these agencies it has created, its own creatures, by an enactment turned over reorganization of the Government to the Chief Executive; in that case would you not say that the Congress had relinquished its control over the matter?

Is that indicated? Now, I am talking about particular ones and not just these numerous bureaus and agencies that we speak of.

Another thing about the veto power: You realize that when the President might send a plan here, that Congress either has to accept it all or reject it all. We cannot say that it is so many percent good and so many percent bad. That is another feature of this bill. We may have to take some bad with it, and there will be a compromise, and you would have to have it, because often legislation in this kind of Government that we have is compromise.

Mrs. STONE. Yes.

Senator REVERCOMB. Do you think that the strict veto, being unable to change the President's plan, is a good thing? Or should the Congress reserve the right to take 80 percent of the plan and refuse to accept the other 20 percent?

Mrs. STONE. Is that not, in the long run, what would happen? There would be some more thinking about it, and eventually there would be another plan which would be more politically feasible.

Senator MCCARRAN. I wish your group would think of this: To work into this bill or any bill that is finally adopted a provision whereby any agency that might be affected by the act of the President would retain its independence as to certain functions, free and clear from Executive interference; as, for instance, where an agency had what is known as quasi-judicial functions to perform, that those

functions should be performed without any interference, in that the Executive should not have the right to impair in anywise the function of independent decision.

Mrs. STONE. I should think that that would be possible, but perhaps it would be somewhat difficult to define. I think that is a detail in which a lay organization such as ours would find difficulty in giving you an answer.

Senator MCCARRAN. I thank you very much for the advice that you have given us.

Mr. A. E. Lyon, of the Railway Labor Executives Association. Will you kindly come forward, Mr. Lyon, and state your name and the position that you occupy and your place of residence?

Mr. LYON. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF A. E. LYON, REPRESENTING RAILWAY LABOR EXECUTIVES ASSOCIATION

Mr. LYON. My name is A. E. Lyon, and my address is 10 Independence Avenue SW., Washington.

Senator MCCARRAN. And you speak for the Railway Labor Executives Association?

Mr. LYON. Yes, sir; I am executive secretary of that association, and I appear here in its behalf.

Senator MCCARRAN. Now, will you kindly explain to the committee just what that name implies? Of what is your association composed? Mr. LYON. The Railway Labor Executives Association consists of the chief executive officers of 19 national railway labor organizations. I will be glad to name those for you:

Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen.
Order of Railway Conductors of America.

Switchmen's Union of North America.

Order of Railroad Telegraphers.

American Train Dispatchers' Association.

Railway Employees' Department, A. F. of L.

Internation Association of Machinists.

International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, and Helpers of America.

International Brotherhood of Blacksmiths, Drop Forgers, and Helpers.

Sheet Metal Workers' International Association.
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

Brotherhood, Railway Carmen of America.

International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers.

Brotherhood of Railway and Steamship Clerks, Freight Handlers, Express, and Station Employees.

Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees.

Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen of America.

National Organization, Masters, Mates, and Pilots of America.

National Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association.

International Longshoremen's Association.

Hotel and Restaurant Employees' International Alliance and Bartenders International League of America.

The latter organization, of course, represents dining-car workers on railroads.

I would like to add, Mr. Chairman, that these organizations which I have named represent more than 80 percent of the railway employees in the United States.

I have a very brief statement that I would like to present, Mr. Chairman.

Senator MCCARRAN. Very well.

Senator REVERCOMB. Approximately how many individuals, would you say?

Mr. LYON. At the present time, Senator, there are about a million and a half railway workers, 1,450,000 on the class I railways of the United States. Our organization of these associations represents about a million and a quarter of those.

Senator MCCARRAN. I just wanted to get the set-up, if I may. Now, you have your individual brotherhoods, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Trainmen, and so forth, and then this organization that you represent grows out of those organizations?

Mr. LYON. Yes, sir. And perhaps I should make that clear because of the two you mentioned.

The engineers and trainmen are not in our association. the only ones that do not cooperate with the others.

They are

Our association grows out of the need for associating or combining our efforts on mutual problems, and we operate, of course, under a set of bylaws in which any organization continues to participate if desired. If they do not desire to, they can pursue their own course. Senator MCCARRAN. Now, is your organization sustained by contributions from the brotherhoods or from individuals?

Mr. LYON. Yes, sir; we handle it on a membership basis. Each organization contributes from time to time as the requirements necessitate.

Senator MCCARRAN. I see. All right. Thank you very much. Mr. LYON. Our association has considered the pending bill, S. 1120, and we are opposed to it unless it is amended so as to exempt certain agencies in which we have a vital concern.

These agencies are: (1) The National Mediation Board and the National Railroad Adjustment Board, both of which were created by and function under the Railway Labor Act; (2) the Railroad Retirement Board; and (3) the Interstate Commerce Commission.

These agencies perform services of great importance to the railroad industry and to the public, and railroad employees have a vital interest in their unimpaired functioning under the carefully considered laws which created them.

The collective bargaining and labor relations machinery established by the Railway Labor Act of 1926, with the amendments adopted in 1934, is very frequently cited by Members of Congress and others as being a sound and tested method of maintaining industrial peace inone of the country's most important industries.

This law created the National Mediation Board and established its duties and functions. It also created the National Railroad Adjustment Board as a necessary means for the peaceful adjustment or adjudication of types of labor disputes not assigned by the law to the Mediation Board.

These two agencies were deliberately established as separate and independent bodies to deal with specialized and technical labor problems in the railway industry. There were good reasons for this action when the law was enacted, and those reasons are still valid. We object to the enactment of a law which would permit the merger, abolition, or discontinuance of the functions of these Boards created by the Railway Labor Act.

We object to any permission being given for plans or programs to be made which would even contemplate such action. The confusion and uncertainties which such planning would produce would be harmful even though no program were eventually adopted or approved by the Congress.

We do not want the Railway Labor Act revised or portions of it nullified by any planners or consolidators, in or out of Government. If it is to be revised we want careful consideration to be given in the normal and democratic way through the legislative processes of the Congress.

Senator MCCARRAN. How was it set up in the first instance, if you do not mind the interruption? That is, how was the act itself worked out? You say that you do not want it revised either in or out of Congress. How did it come into existence, except by the act of Congress?

Mr. LYON. It did, sir. The Railway Labor Act of 1926 was enacted by Congress at the joint request of the owners of the industry, or managers of the industry, and organized labor. It was amended rather extensively in 1934. At that time, however, the railroad companies opposed some of the amendments which the labor organizations advocated.

The present law has been in existence since 1934, with some slight changes, one change including the air transport industry, as you doubtless know.

Senator REVERCOMB. May I ask the question: The Mediation Board deals with any differences or claims between the workers and the management?

Mr. LYON. One type of difference or claim, Senator Revercomb. The Mediation Board has two major functions in our industry; they act as a body of the mediators or conciliators in handling certain types of labor disputes. The type of labor dispute they handle is a dispute brought by an effort to change an existing agreement covering wages or working conditions in order to create a new agreement where none exists.

The other major function of the Mediation Board is the handling of representation disputes where one union is not recognized as representing a body of workers and they desire to be certified as the official representative of that class or craft of employees.

Senator REVERCOMB. Now, you are asking that that Mediation. Board be kept in existence, and I take it that it has been very successful in working out this matter of the type of dispute you mentioned. That is your view?

Mr. LYON. Yes. I think the Railway Labor Act is recognized everywhere as being a successful method of handling labor relations in the railroad industry.

Senator REVERCOMB. Why would it not work in all cases in every industry?

Mr. LYON. Well, that is something that I am not qualified to speak about, Senator. I am a railroad man. I think I know a little bit about our situation, but I frankly admit that I know very little about some of these other things.

The Railroad Retirement Board should certainly be exempted from the provisions of the pending bill. The Railroad Retirement Act and the Railroad Unemployment Insurance Act, both of which are admin

istered by the Board, provide for systems of Nation-wide and uniform annuity and unemployment benefits for railway employees.

These systems require, if they are to continue to serve the purposes of Congress when the laws were enacted, that the Board be protected in its status as a separate and independent agency and that none of its duties, functions, or responsibilities be discontinued.

The benefits paid to railroad employees, through the Board, and the cost of administration are borne from funds paid by the employees and by the carriers. The Government does not contribute to these costs.

The Board is doing a good job, and we do not want it interfered with by any planning or consideration of any possible merger with another agency or any discontinuing of any of its functions.

Senator MCCARRAN. Now, you say the Government does not contribute. Is it not financed from the National Treasury for its administrative work?

Mr. LYON. The contributions from employers and carriers pay the cost of the administration, and all benefits come through the taxes collected by the Carriers Taxing Act, which is a special taxing act enacted by Congress.

Senator MCCARRAN. And does that not go into the Treasury?

Mr. LYON. That goes into the Treasury, and Congress, of course, appropriates each year the necessary amounts to meet the costs. Senator MCCARRAN. But it does come by an appropriation from Congress.

Mr. LYON. Yes; but it comes from us, from the carriers, and then through the Treasury. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCARRAN. But the Government is the custodian of that money and is responsible for its being paid out. I am just trying to see if we see eye to eye on the matter that no Government interference whatever is justified.

In other words, if we are responsible for this money, and it is paid out through the hands of the Congress, should not some agencyand presumably the executive branch of the Government-have control of the so-called housekeeping phase; that is, how much money is being expended, and is it being lavishly expended, or is it being economically expended?

The

Mr. LYON. I think, Senator, that that is being done now. Retirement Board is compelled by the law to make annual reports to the Congress. Probably you recall they made rather an elaborate and detailed report.

Senator MCCARRAN. That is just the trouble. The detail of it is the thing that defeats it, because Congress does not get into the detail as it should.

Mr. LYON. I think, however, that the purpose of the law is being well served there now. I do not know personally the extent to whicn the executive branch of the Government supervises the handling of administration.

Senator MCCARRAN. It does come through the Budget Bureau? Mr. LYON. Oh, without doubt. The law creating the Railroad Retirement Board provides, of course, that there will be three men on the Board itself. One of them will be appointed from nominations made by the carriers; one is appointed from nominations made by

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