Now, I would ask if the word “control” as there used does not begin to inaugurate a system, whether it is done in this bill or not, as to which future Congresses, taking this as a cue, can pass laws for the purpose of giving the Federal Government under this Department the right to regulate and control the business of these insurance companies everywhere? Is not that in contravention of the laws of the various States controlling and regulating the business of insurance in those States?

Mr. MANN. I think not. The words in the bill provide for control as may be provided by law. There is no one in the House, and so far as I know no one in the country, who desires to have the power conferred upon the National Government, even if it could be constitutionally conferred, to regulate the insurance business and take it away from the control of the States. But those words are usual in creating a Department; they ought to be in the bill. They mean nothing unless hereafter in some way some power is conferred upon the Department. It might be a power simply to collect statistics, as we confer power upon the Census Office; but it is not the purpose and not the meaning of the law to take away the power of the State and confer it upon the National Government.

Mr. BARTLETT. May I ask the gentleman another question?

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. DE ARMOND. Mr. Chairman, this, I think, is rather a remarkable provision. It is to "foster, promote, and develop" the insurance business of the United States, a business which, as the chairman of the committee stated to the House a short time ago, is already an enormous business. Yet we are to foster, promote, and develop it through the agencies of this new Department of Commerce and Labor. Why is not this called the Department of Commerce and Insurance? Why do you not tack onto the name the word "insurance" as well as the word "labor." Certainly the insurance interests will be satisfied with the substance, and you propose to satisfy, if you can, labor interests with a jingle of words. What reason there is upon the earth for a department in this Government to foster, promote, and develop insurance, until the discovery was made by the gentlemen who project this bill, was a mystery to the world. This clause is an addition to what was in the Senate bill. Those who refer to section 3 of the Senate bill, proposed to be stricken out to make way for this amendment, will find that it contains nothing in relation to fostering, promoting, and developing insurance.

The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Mann] suggests that these harmless words "foster, promote, and develop" will have no weight and can do nothing unless there be other legislation. Does the gentleman, in the simplicity of his soul, suppose that it is intended that there shall be no other legislation? Can he not with the eye of fancy see a bureau presided over by a chief and an assistant chief and a chief clerk, assistant clerks, and a horde of useful employees, to "foster, promote, and develop the insurance business of the United States, and incidentally-I might say principally and primarily-to foster, promote, and develop the interests of themselves and of those who put them into these fat but useless offices?

There are a great many things in this bill the absence of which would be an improvement, but striking and unique in these samples of strange legislation is this feature: To foster, promote, and develop the insurance industry in the United States.

If this were not serious legislation, it would lack but little of being a roaring farce— creating a department of the Government, having an officer in the Cabinet of the President, to foster, promote, and develop the insurance business of the United States; and not to leave him alone and unassisted, not to burden him with overwork, but to supply him with an abundance of subordinates, so that he and they, colaboring, putting their massive intellects and their great industry into operation, may effectually and satisfactorily to those interested that way, foster, promote, and develop the huge, the enormous insurance business of the United States.

This provision did not straggle in by accident. It did not get in through some fortuitous circumstances. I think it is due to the House that those who know how it got into this bill, that those who know who got it into the bill, that those who know who are to profit primarily and directly from the putting of it into the bill, ought, in a generous burst of confidence, to impart a little of the information to the House. It would not occur to the ordinary man in the ordinary way, the ordinary promoter of commerce, the ordinary friend of labor in words-it would hardly as a mere matter of accident, as a matter of fortuitous inspiration, occur to any of these to light upon this scheme to provide for fostering, promoting, and developing the insurance business of the United States. I think we can see following this the organization of some huge Federal insurance companies. I think we may witness the power of organized wealth banded together in the various insurance companies taking possession so far as they please of the machinery of the Government, using it to throw out of gear and to destroy the machinery of the States, perfected to a considerable degree for the control of the insurance interests and business.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. GROSVENOR. Mr. Chairman, I want to make two suggestions in regard to the argument of the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. De Armond]: First, as to the use of the language "foster, promote, and develop."

Those words are used not in their ordinary meaning, and certainly not in the meaning that the gentleman from Missouri has given to them. The purposes coyered by the enactment have received complete explanation and limitation by the words that follow in the bill itself. He is to "foster, promote, and develop the various insurance industries of the United States." How? By any such means or measures as the gentleman has spoken of? Certainly not; but by exactly the same processes that the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Mann] has already explained in regard to the cultivation and growth of cotton, the production and propagation of fish, the control of the weather, and all of the other things that are covered by this bureau of information, by the Government.

Mr. DE ARMOND. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman from Ohio yield?

Mr. GROSVENOR I have not quite stated my point. It is to be done

by gathering, compiling, publishing, and supplying all available and useful information concerning such insurance business. And to this end it shall be vested with jurisdiction and control of the departments, bureaus, and branches of the public service hereinafter specified, and with such other powers and duties as may be prescribed by law.

So the whole action of this Bureau in the matter of insurance is limited. First, its power and purpose are described, and then limited by the act itself.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman now yield?

Mr. GROSVENOR. I do.

Mr. DE ARMOND. The gentleman now has given his explanation of the meaning of foster, develop, and promote the insurance industry of the United States.

Mr. GROSVENOR. By the processes and means laid down in the statute, and limited expressly to those processes and those powers, and none other.

Mr. DE ARMOND. Will the gentleman permit a question?

Mr. GROSVENOR. Certainly.

Mr. DE ARMOND. What fostering, promoting, or developing does the insurance business of the United States need at this time?

Mr. GROSVENOR. Well, I call the gentleman's attention to one matter which I think he has lost sight of. It has not been quite one year since there was pending in this House a most important measure, calling upon the Federal Government of the United States to interfere to protect the vested rights and interests of three of the greatest insurance companies of the world in a foreign country, and the State Department was invoked, and had been for years before, to supervene in the matter of the wrongs that were said to be done to those companies by the legislation or regulations of the Empire of Germany. And so it was that the President of the United States put on foot, through the State Department, examinations, and reports came, and the President's messages referred to them on two different years. So there was one matter of the greatest importance that no State could have interfered with or had anything to do with. This Department of Insurance, had it been in existence at that time, would have had that information, all the facts that would have been necessary to have settled that matter in a very few months. As it was, two, at least, of our insurance companies suffered enormous loss of business while the pendency of insurance regulations were being attended to.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the main answer to it all, as supplementary to what the gentleman from Illinois has said about this interest of insurance, of vast importance to every man, woman, and child interested in it, that there shall be a systematic means of knowledge open to all the people of the country when there is any future legislation. There is no attempt by this measure to control the action of the State, nor to prohibit the action of a State, nor to act in place of a State. It is simply to transfer. or to give power to this Department to make such investigations as will give to the people of all countries, our own country as well, all necessary information whenever they have occasion to use it.

Mr. GARDNER, of New Jersey. Mr. Chairman, let us neither deceive ourselves nor be deceived by any doubts of jurisdiction on the one hand or disclaimers of intent on the other. If the gentleman from Michigan is right in his legal contention, this provision, together with section 6, ought to go out of this bill. If the gentleman from Iowa is right, then more emphatically both provisions ought to go out of the bill. It is in vain to say here to intelligent men who know anything about the history of bureaus of government, particularly any man who has any knowledge of what has been called the "hogging of jurisdiction" from the States, that the foundation here laid does not disclose the purpose of this bill. A part of the insurance capital of the country has for more than a half a century been aggressively seeking to escape State regulation.

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Whenever they have had an opportunity in a case having apparently interstatecommerce features it has been carried to the courts of the United States; and there has not been a year since I can remember that legislation like this would not have been here for enactment had anybody been able to offer assurance of success in either House of Congress. It has not been here because there was no encouragement to bring it here. But now a sentiment has arisen for the creation of a Department of Commerce and Labor it is seized upon as a vehicle to carry into the domain of national legislation and jurisdiction a question that they would not risk standing alone.

This bill provides for an Insurance Bureau, and the words now under consideration are the foundation for the rest of the purpose. The provision is, "shall exercise such jurisdiction and control as may hereafter be provided by law." Does anybody who knows anything about the history of Bureaus of the Departments not know that very Bureau will from now on report necessary additions to its power, and that the Secretary of the Department will recommend it, and that it is intended that the whole matter of interstate insurance shall be beaten into such shape under the Congressional hammer that it will become interstate commerce and directly under the control of the national bureau?

If this bill passes this session the year 1904 will not come until litigation arises thrusting this question of regulation of insurance into inextricable confusion in every State having an insurance department. Gentlemen tell us how gigantic this business has become. It is a prosperous and great business. Has it grown up under national control? No; but under State regulation. Every State, or all of the older States, have insurance departments, under competent men. They provide certain conditions under which companies may do business in the States, and the kind of information that this Bureau can give is already in the hands of the States for every insurer.

That is not what they seek in this bill, Mr. Chairman. The kernel in this nut is that most of the States require certain conditions for the transaction of insurance business within their limits. And one of them is that they require a deposit of bonds or securities with their financial officer, and thus provide an amount of money within the State for those who suffer losses within the State, and in case of a suit and judgment there is something within the State to be reached by execution. That is the thing from which escape is sought, and it is one of the chief motives for pressing this measure.

Mr. SHACKLEFORD. Mr. Chairman, I think this bill contains no feature more dangerous than that relating to insurance. It says "it shall be the province and duty of said Bureau, under the direction of the Secretary, to exercise such control as may be provided by law."

As has been very well expressed by the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. Gardner], the great insurance companies of this country would be very glad to have provided by law some regulations that would keep the States from controlling them as they now do. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Mann] had much to say about information for the benefit of the people. In the State from which I come we have an insurance bureau, whose duty it is to know the exact condition of every insurance company that does business within its borders, and to compel that company to exhibit its affairs for the inspection of that commissioner, and let him say whether or not it is solvent and sound. Every insurance company within the boundaries of the State of Missouri is compelled to show its condition, and in doing so they find it sometimes an embarrassment to them, and to escape this embarrassment they want to come here under some sort of blanket law that will take away from the States the powers they now exercise. As I said in a speech yesterday, in the State of Missouri we have some insurance regulations which were violated by the companies doing business in our State. We called them before the courts and took away their charters and they were not permitted to do business again until they paid fines to the State amounting to more than $100,000. They do not want to do that. They do not want to comply with the regulations of the State law. They come here with this insidious measure, and are now attempting to get Federal control where they are now controlled well by the States in the interests of the people. Every State in the Union to-day has a good insurance law and good insurance regulations, or can have them.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to any provision of Federal legislation that has for its object to take away from the States this wholesome and healthy control of the insurance companies doing business within their borders. A few years ago they were driven from Kansas because they would not comply with the State laws. A few years ago they threatened the State of Arkansas that they should have no insurance in that State unless they repealed the insurance laws. They tried to override the laws in my State. As has been said by the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. Gardner], this is the first step in the march of the insurance companies to the goal where the States will have no control over their affairs. To-day the insurance com

panies would have the questions adjudicated by a Federal tribunal. They do not want to submit to the judgment of the State courts. [Applause.]

Mr. MANN. Mr. Chairman

Mr. HAY. Mr. Chairman, I make the point that debate is exhausted on this amendment.

The CHAIRMAN. The time for debate has expired. The question now is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Michigan.

Mr. PADGETT. Mr. Chairman, I suggest to the gentleman that he should not include in his amendment to strike out the words "in the United States," because that refers to other business above mentioned.

Mr. CORLISS. I think that is a good suggestion and I will adopt it.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read the amendment as modified.

The Clerk read as follows:

In line 23, strike out the words "and the insurance business."

The question was taken; and on a division (demanded by Mr. Hepburn) there were-ayes 59, noes 40.

Mr. HEPBURN. Tellers, Mr. Chairman.

Tellers were ordered.

The Chair appointed as tellers Mr. Corliss and Mr. Hepburn.

The House again divided; and the tellers reported that there were 70 ayes and 65

noes.

So the amendment was agreed to.

The Clerk, proceeding with the reading of the bill, read as follows:

SEC. 4. That the following-named offices, bureaus, divisions, and branches of the public service, now and heretofore under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Treasury, and all that pertains to the same, known as the Light-House Board, the Light-House Service, the National Bureau of Standards, the Coast and Geodetic Survey, the Bureau of Immigration, and the Bureau of Statistics, be, and the same hereby are, transferred from the Department of the Treasury to the Department of Commerce and Labor, and the same shall hereafter remain under the jurisdiction and supervision of the last-named Department; and that the Census Office, and all that pertains to the same, be, and the same hereby is, transferred from the Department of the Interior to the Department of Commerce and Labor, to remain henceforth under the jurisdiction of the latter; that the Department of Labor, and the Office of Commissioner of Fish and Fisheries, and all that pertains to the same, be, and the same hereby are, placed under the jurisdiction and made a part of the Department of Commerce and Labor; that the Bureau of Foreign Commerce, now in the Department of State, be, and the same hereby is, transferred to the Department of Commerce and Labor, and consolidated with and made a part of the Bureau of Statistics, hereinbefore transferred from the Department of the Treasury to the Department of Commerce and Labor, and the two shall constitute one Bureau, to be called the Bureau of Statistics, with a chief of the Bureau; and that the Secretary of Commerce and Labor shall have complete control of the work of gathering and distributing statistical information naturally relating to the subjects confided to his Department; and to this end said Secretary shall have power to employ any or either of the said Bureaus and to rearrange such statistical work, and to distribute or consolidate the same as may be deemed desirable in the public interest; and said Secretary shall also have authority to call upon other Departments of the Government for statistical data and results obtained by them; and said Secretary of Commerce and Labor may collate, arrange, and publish such statistical information so obtained in such manner as to him may seem wise.

That the official records and papers now on file in and pertaining exclusively to the business of any bureau, office, department, or branch of the public service in this act transferred to the Department of Commerce and Labor, together with the furniture now in use in such bureau, office, department, or branch of the public service, shall be, and hereby are, transferred to the Department of Commerce and Labor.

Mr. MANN. Mr. Chairman, by direction of the committee I offer several formal amendments to this section.

The Clerk read as follows:

Amend section 4 by striking out of line 8, page 10, the word "service" and insert in place thereof the word "establishment."

Amend section 4 by inserting in line 9, page 10, after the word "survey," the words "Commissioners of Immigration."

Amend section 4 by inserting, after the word "immigration," in line 9, the words "immigration service at large."

Insert in line 18, page 10, after the word "labor," the words "Fish Commission."

Strike out, in line 5, page 11, the word "complete."

Amend section 4 by striking out of said section all after and including the word "and," in line 7, page 11, down to and including the word "interest," in line 11 of said page, and inserting in place thereof the following:

"And the Secretary of Commerce and Labor is hereby given the power and authority to rearrange the statistical work of the bureaus and offices confided to said Department, and to consolidate any of the statistical bureaus and offices transferred to said Department."

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection the amendments will be submitted together. Mr. CRUMPACKER. Mr. Chairman, I desire to address the House briefly upon the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Mann] authorizing the Secretary of the Department of Commerce and Labor to rearrange and coordinate the statistical work of that Department, and to merge and consolidate statistical bureaus and offices wherever and whenever considerations of economy and desirability may require it. The functions of the new Department, when created, will be

chiefly the gathering and dissemination of statistical and other information that may advise the people of the country respecting the condition of commerce and labor in their various relations, and suggesting methods by which their interests may be promoted. The Department will have no power to regulate and control either commerce or labor. Authority is conferred by the Federal Constitution upon Congress to regulate interstate and foreign commerce, and to this extent the Department may administer laws enacted by Congress that bear upon this class of commerce. Beyond this the functions of the Department will be purely ministerial and advisory in their character.

The original departments of the Government deal with essential governmental functions. The executive power of the Government is primarily vested in the President, and to enable him to satisfactorily administer that power various departments have from time to time been created. Until the Department of Agriculture was established every administrative department of the Government whose chief officer was honored with a seat in the council of the President's advisers was created expressly to assist the President in executing powers of government that were imposed upon him by the Federal Constitution. The Secretary of State conducts diplomatic negotiations and has control of general intercourse with foreign nations; the Secretary of the Treasury collects the revenues and conducts the fiscal operations of the Government; the Secretaries of War and Navy have to do with matters of public defense and the control of general military operations; the Attorney-General is at the head of the legal department; the Postmaster-General administers the vast and complicated postal system of the Government; and the Secretary of the Interior administers public lands, pensions, patents, and relations with the Indian tribes.

All of these functions are inherently governmental, and the propriety of distributing them among the several departments and of making the heads of the respective departments members of the President's Cabinet is natural and obvious. If the President shall successfully administer the vast interests that pertain to the executive branch of the Federal Government, it is but natural that heads of departments having control of these several branches of administrative service should meet with him and impart information respecting their condition and needs.

The first departure from the logical arrangement of the executive business of the Government was in the creation of the Agricultural Department. The Federal Government has no authority over the subject of agriculture at all, and the Secretary of that important Department can not be presumed to supply the President with information in relation to the duties imposed upon the Chief Magistrate by the Federal Constitution, because agriculture is not one of those duties.

The importance, however, of the agricultural interests became so great, and the fact that agriculture is generally known to be the bedrock of civilization, were sufficient to justify Congress in elevating the Bureau of Agriculture to the dignity of a Department and making the head of that Department eligible to admission into the President's council of advisers. But this action of Congress did not and could not change or add to the powers of the Chief Executive.

Following the precedent of the Agricultural Department, it is now proposed to create a Department of Commerce and Industry, placing it, as far as it can be placed by legislation, upon the same footing, in relation to dignity and authority, as the other great Departments of Government. Its duties are not governmental. Commerce during all time has been, and probably for many generations in the future will continue to be, the subject of purely private enterprise, but the transcendent importance of commerce and labor in relation to the welfare and advancement of civilization make these subjects worthy of the high consideration they will receive in the creation of an independent department dedicated to their promotion.

It is of great importance to the country to have accurate information respecting conditions and methods of commerce, not only here but in other lands, and also to know of the true interests and relations of labor in the numerous productive activities of the country. It is expected that the new Department will gather and disseminate all the information that can be gotten in relation to these highly important subjects. This information will be of incalculable value to individuals and private enterprises in suggesting improvements of methods of production and better conditions of life. It may also be made the basis of information necessary to intelligent legislation upon the part of Congress and the several States. I am in favor of creating the new Department and believe if it is properly organized and administered it will many times repay the cost of its establishment and maintenance.

But, as I said at the outset, the functions of the Department will be chiefly in the gathering and the distribution of statistical information, and it ought to be so organized and conducted as to supply such information, not only for the people of the country, but for the use of all of the other departments of the Government, as far as