Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Offered by myself.

Mr. GUTHEIM. Presented some information on that subject and showed, my recollection is, that in New England in July the railroads were paying for spot coal something like $6 per ton more than for contract coal.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. And the actual price was $13 to $15 a ton for spot coal?

Mr. GUTHEIM. There were stories that coal had been bought at those figures up there.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. For the record, will you state the amount of bituminous coal, the percentage of bituminous coal, that is consumed by the railroads of the country?

Mr. GUTHEIM. The locomotive fuel consumption is about 27 to 28 per cent of the aggregate production.

Senator KENYON. A few contract coal priority orders were made by the Interstate Commerce Commission as to the coal, and that rather smashed the contract coal, did it not? Are you familiar with that subject?

Mr. GUTHEIM. Are you referring to railroad fuel?

Senator KENYON. No; general contracts, getting away from the railroads for the minute. Are you familiar with that practice?

Mr. GUTHEIM. Oh, I am familiar with the priority orders which the Interstate Commerce Commission entered.

Senator KENYON. And that ended the contract coal largely, did it not?

Mr. GUTHEIM. Well, I would not go that far. There has been a lot of discussion as to what the effect of the priority order was, as to whether it tended to divert contract coal to spot coal-the spot coal to supplant what was contract coal.

Senator KENYON. We have had information as to that in other investigations.

Mr. GUTHEIM. You can guess a lot on that, but you can prove it concretely by taking instances of specific contracts and finding out what was shipped on contract, and finding out what spot was used in substitution.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Can you state how much bituminous coal, or what percentage of bituminous coal mined, is used by the public utilities of the country?

Mr. GUTHEIM. The Geological Survey's figures, I believe, show in the neighborhood of 6 per cent.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. And in addition to that there is outside locomotive consumption?

Mr. GUTHEIM. That is outside of locomotive consumption. In other words, the railroads and public utilities together consume in the neighborhood of about 35 per cent of the total production of bituminous coal.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. You spoke a few moments ago about the price paid by some railroads, particularly the New Engand Railroad, for spot coal. Is it not a fact that there is some evidence in the record here that the ships owned by the Shipping Board paid between $16 and $20 a ton at New York?

Mr. GUTHEIM. I did not hear that evidence. Perhaps Senator Kenyon can tell you better than I can.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. That is a fact, is it not, Senator Kenyon?

Senator KENYON. I do not know the figures.

The CHAIRMAN. It was a very large sum though.

Senator KENYON. Yes.

Mr. CHANTLAND. I can state that I had information that they had paid from $16 to $21. Part of the testimony is not in the record, because we want to develop it in an orderly fashion, but we will get it

as soon as we can.

The CHAIRMAN. At what time were those prices paid?

Mr. CHANTLAND. From July to October last and at a time when we should have been able to contract for coal at considerably less, we know that their ships got their coal at such prices, and those contracts for their ships, at least under charter, it seemed had to have the approval of the officers down at the Shipping Board, and as I understand it, in a number of instances the Shipping Board actually made payments, although they were charged against the operation of the leased ship.

Senator MCNARY. Is that because the Shipping Board was for to buy spot coal?

Mr. CHANTLAND. That seems to be a disputed point-as to whether they were forced out or not. I think there will be some testimony indicating that they were offered contract coal at much less. But those were the prices they did pay-not a very economical business. The statement was made that they were in the spot market and had to stay in, and those were the prices.

Senator WALSII of Massachusetts. I think it appears that there was information furnished by the Interstate Commerce Commission that last spring or early summer an effort was made by persons engaged in Europe, in the sale of coal, to buy large amounts of bituminous coal, and they competed with the shipping interests of our country and also with those sections of the country that receive bituminous coal by water successfully to the extent of increasing the spot very, very materially. It caused prices to double and triple, because there was such a demand for bituminous coal.

Senator MCNARY. Yes.

Mr. CHANTLAND. I think it is common information that the docks at Norfolk were so congested with coal bought for export that the usual New England coal could not get to New England, and rail coal did not get there because a large part of the time there was an embargo. I think that is common knowledge.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Is there anything further that you desire to volunteer, Mr. Gutheim, with regard to this matter? Mr. GUTHEIM. No, Senator; I think not.

Senator FERNALD. I move that the committee adjourn, to meet next Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 11.55 o'clock, the committee adjourned, to meet at 10 o'clock a. m. Tuesday, January 18, 1921.)

PUBLICATION OF PRODUCTION AND PROFITS IN COAL.

TUESDAY, JANUARY 18, 1921.

UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON MANUFACTURES, Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 o'clock a. m. in room 308, Senate Office Building, Senator Robert M. La Follette presiding.

Present: Senators La Follette (chairman), Kenyon, Fernald, McNary, Gronna, Pomerene, Jones, Reed, and Walsh.

There were also present Messrs. Clark and Aitchison, of the Interstate Commerce Commission, and Hon. Houston Thompson, chairman of the Federal Trade Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. We will resume the taking of testimony which was interrupted at our last adjournment, and I will call as the first witness this morning Chairman Clark, of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

STATEMENT OF HON. EDGAR E. CLARK, CHAIRMAN INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Clark, I will ask you if you have seen Senate bill 4828, which is the bill before the committee?

Commissioner CLARK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see the draft of the bill before it was introduced?

Commissioner CLARK. Only section 5 of it.

The CHAIRMAN. I direct your attention especially to section 5 and ask you to state to the committee your views as to the administration of that section so far as it makes requirements of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Commissioner CLARK. We have given some consideration to that, Senator, and we see no difficulty about carrying out the administrative duties which it would place upon the commission if it should become a law.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you see any difficulty in the coordination of the work of the commissions mentioned in section 5, or in any other parts of the bill, calling for activities of other commissions together with the Interstate Commerce Commission in the administration of the bill?

Commissioner CLARK. I see no difficulty, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. There is an appropriation provided in the bill in section 21, an additional appropriation of $10,000 to each of the commissions excepting the Federal Trade Commission, for which the bill proposes an appropriation of $25,000—for the fiscal year ending

June 30, 1921. Will you state whether, in your opinion, $10,000 will be a sufficient sum to meet the requirements of the Interstate Commerce Commission in the duties imposed upon the committee by this bill, if it should become a law?

Commissioner CLARK. Mr. Chairman, the additional cost that we would be put to will depend upon the frequency with which the reports have to be compiled and made. I can not suggest any sum that would seem to me more appropriate than that which you have provided. I think it will be sufficient for the remainder of the fiscal year. It will take some little time, if this bill becomes a law, to get the force organized and get an understanding between the commissions and get the matter fully working, but I am sure that $10,000 will take care of any additional expense we will be put to between now and the end of the fiscal year. The expense to us will be substantially all covered by the additional statistical clerks that we will have to have to devote their time to this work. Reports will be numerous and the disposition and effort will be to analyze them carefully and make recapitulations and the summaries of them as intelligent as possible.

The CHAIRMAN. Chairman Clark, the bill makes certain requirements as to certain fuel-car rated requirements. Will you just enlighten the committee upon that matter?

Commissioner CLARK. It has been customary for a great many years-practically universal-to group those mines that are adjacent to each other and in close competition with each other under common rates, and naturally each mine operator wants an even show with his competitors for transportation, and that is especially of importance to him in times when there are not sufficient cars to give everybody all they want; and so the policy has been adopted, and long followed, of establishing ratings for the several mines, those ratings fixing the relationship of the mines to each other, and then in times of car shortage the cars are distributed on the basis of those ratings. Now, for distribution purposes it does not make very much difference what the ratings are, only so they are equitable as between the mine operators. Operator A would bear the same relationship to Operator B if A had a rating of 200 and B of 100 as if A had 100 and B had 50. This bill, if it becomes a law, will make much more important a question which to my mind has come to be of great importance, and that is that the mine ratings shall be revised so that they will reflect more nearly the output which the mine would actually produce. I have yet to meet a coal operator who does not admit that if on their present ratings they were supplied with a hundred per cent car supply that they could not use it. The ratings are inflated; they have served their purpose. The importance of these questions that have come up in the last few months never were appreciated until we were right in the midst of them.

Senator POMERENE. That is, ratings heretofore have been in accordance with their actual capacity, and not in accordance with the actual amount they have mined?

Commissioner CLARK. In one way and another they have represented more coal than they would mine if they had a hundred per cent of cars. I think it is a very safe statement to say that if all of the mines had had a 70 per cent car supply there never would have been any question of car shortage, because they would have had