Statement of deposits, being proceeds of those sales deposited during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1871. [This statement is annexed marked "Exhibit No. 9."] By Mr. CARPENTER : Q. You have examined these paper and know them to be correct copies of the originals?-A. I have. I desire to state in explanation of the sales in the printed document on the first column of Exhibit No. 1, that I have inserted the date of delivery in red ink over what was the "date of sale." By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Where the blanks were ?-A. Yes, sir. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. Those dates, then, are the dates of delivery?-A. Yes, sir; where the month is stated but not the day, the reports on file in the office show that the sales were made during the month, but do not give the day. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. You say that the records in the office do not show the exact date of delivery?-A. Where it is not stated here, they do not; but the reports are of sales made during the month, as in auction sales and some others. Those were minor sales. By Mr. AMES: Q. Can Colonel Crispin supply the dates of delivery?-A. All the dates of Colonel Crispin are inserted there. Those to which I refer are minor sales. I would state further that in the preparation of this statement, which was prepared by myself wholly, General Dyer's instructions to me were to be particular to give the kind of stores and the prices paid. The matter of date was not, I think, mentioned, and I consider it of little importance. In cases where the officers having charge of the sale were to sell to a particular individual, naming him, stores at a certain price, I took that as the date of sale, and so inserted it here; but where the authority was general, as to sell a certain kind of stores, not naming the individual, then I gave the date of delivery. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. You are speaking now of the way in which you made out the document at first?-A. Yes, sir, in explanation of the corrections now made here. Q. And the corrections now made furnish all the dates in reference to the sale and delivery of these stores that the Department can furnish? A. Yes, sir; this statement I prepared wholly after office-hours, working after midnight many hours. It was such a statement as but few clerks could work on; and I was conversant, more so perhaps than any other clerk, with the matter, and prepared it after office-hours. It was hurriedly prepared, too, as the Marquis de Chambrun stated that he desired the information that he asked for, so as to telegraph it to his government in ten days, I think, from the time he first asked for it. I heard him make a remark in relation to cartridges that had been sold to a private individual at $35, that when they reached France they had advanced in price to $57 a thousand. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. As chief clerk of the Ordnance Bureau, did the money for the sale of these stores pass through your hands?-A. The certificates of deposit Q. What, then, do you know of the amount received from the sales, and what was done with it?-A. I know that during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1871, there were received certificates of deposit covering the sales of that year to the amount of $9,409,307 66. These certificates were sent to the Treasury to go through the usual formalities of being covered in. This statement exhibits the date of deposit, the name of depositor, station, place of deposit, the appropriation under which it was deposited, date when it was sent to the War Department from the Ordnance Office, the date when it was sent from the War Department to the Treasury, and the date when it appeared on the books of the Treasury to the credit of the depositing officer and the appropriation. Q. State what is the latest item sent to the Treasury, and what is the date on which it appears on the books of the Treasury?—A. It is not entered here in regular order of receipt, but each post is completed as far as it goes. Q. What I want to know is, if you can tell me what was the latest sum paid into the Treasury for the year ending June 30, 1871 ?—A. Of the amount that I stated that was turned into the Treasury, the sum of $163,448 63 did not appear on the books of the Treasury during that year, as credited to the appropriation. The stars on the table refer to the amount not covered in. This is the amount received from the sales of stores. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. Do you know why it did not appear on the books of the Treasury?— A. Those certificates had not reached the office of the Secretary of the Treasury in the usual routine of business. Q. They were going through the different accounting officers in the Department and had not got to their ultimate destination so as to be finally entered on the books of the Treasury?-A. Exactly. This statement shows the times after the 1st of July, 1871, that the several amounts embracing the total sum I have given you did appear on the books of the Treasury. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Would the explanation of the fact that all the moneys received. from the sale of these arms did not appear in the Treasury account as credited to the War Department have been furnished if any member of Congress had called on the Department, either personally or by note?-A. I do not think that in the office of the Secretary of the Treasury they could state. Q. You state that four hundred and odd thousand dollars were not covered into the Treasury at the end of the fiscal year ending June 30, 1871. I therefore, looking at the Treasurer's report, would assume that there would be that amount unaccounted for. I ask you now if the explanation which you have given the committee here would have been furnished to any member of Congress who had called at the War Department for it, either personally or by note?-A. Certainly; we are always instructed to give every information to members of Congress in relation to public business. By Mr. SAWYER: Q. Would not the same thing be likely to occur at the end of every fiscal year, that there would be certain sums from these sales, provided they were continued from year to year, which would not at the end of the fiscal year appear on the Treasury books, and yet might appear on the books of the War Department?-A. Yes, sir; I think the thing does occur. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Must it not necessarily occur, if you make any sale where there is not time enough for the matter to go through the usual routine and reach the Treasury before the end of the year?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. Have you copies of the letters which were addressed by the Ordnance Department to arm dealers, inviting bids after it had been resolved upon that the bids in the hands of the Ordnance Department of Remington, of the 13th of October, 1870, should not be opened?—A. All the correspondence, including those bids, and all the correspondence growing out of the advertisements, is in the documents I have already furnished. By Mr. STEVENSON : Q. I see here three papers in regard to sales to Remington & Sons; the first a letter of the 24th of September to Dyer; the next of the 26th of September to Benét, and then the answer of Major Crispin. I see Crispin says in his letter: "Please telegraph your instructions early to-morrow." Have you given us a copy of these instructions?-A. No; I merely authenticate those papers as being correct copies of the files of the office. Q. Are these all the papers touching the Remington sales?—A. As far as I know. Colonel Benét will testify on that point. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Do you know of any Army officer, or of any person connected with the War Department, who had any interest, direct or indirect, either in the sale or manufacture of ordnance stores that were sold ?—Á. I do not. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. Do you know of any officer of the War Department, or of any officer connected with the Government, who made a dollar to himself in any way whatever in consequence of the sale of these ordnance stores?— A. I do not. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Every dollar that was received was covered into the Treasury ?— A. Yes, sir. By Mr. ScпURZ: Q. When contracts were made by Colonel Crispin with parties desiring to purchase arms, were those contracts communicated to the Ordnance Bureau here?-A. Colonel Crispin reported all the sales that he made. Q. Did he report also all the circumstances connected with those sales? For instance, if he made contracts with those parties concerning the delivery, and so on, did he communicate those contracts to the Ordnance Bureau ?-A. I do not know. Q. Do you know of any correspondence having taken place between the Ordnance Bureau here and the ordnance officers of other arsenalsfor instance, Colonel Crispin-by which they were instructed not to sell arms to agents of the belligerent powers?-A. I would state that until a few months ago my duties were not such as would make me familiar with the transactions of the office in general. I was chief of a division there, and at the death of the late chief clerk I was appointed in his place. Q. And so you were not acquainted with the whole correspondence? -A. I do not know what the extent of the correspondence of the office is in detail in all particulars. Q. In other words, you do not know of any correspondence of that kind?-A. I do not. By Mr. SAWYER: Q. How long have you been chief clerk?-A. Since December last. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. Does the volume of letters you have given us contain also a copy of the letter informing Colonel Crispin of the sale of those Spencer and Remington carbines sold in October, 1870, and the order to him to deliver them?-A: That transaction is not embraced in that package to which you refer; but copies of the instructions, I think, are with the papers certified to. Q. Do you keep press copies of those letters ?-A. Press-copies of all letters going out of the office. Mr. SCHURZ. I would suggest that a press-copy of that letter be produced. The WITNESS. I have here two papers relating to the sale of Spencer and Remington carbines, in October, 1870, but not a copy of the letter from the oflice informing Major Crispin that that sale had been author-. ized. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. Is there such a letter in the office?-A. There is. Mr. CARPENTER. We want a copy. By the CHAIRMAN: Q. There was a sale made, on the 12th or 13th of October, to Remington & Sons. Was that sale of any part or parcel of the same arms for which bids had been invited, which were to be opened on the 13th, but were not, in consequence of Squire's dispatch ?-A. They were not. By Mr. STEVENSON: Q. But Remington & Sons did make a bid under the proposals which were to be opened on the 13th, and, by permission of General Dyer, withdrewit-A. That is matter of record. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. When were the proposals sent into the Ordnance Bureau upon which those sales of Remington and Spencer carbines were made?—A. The proposal of Remington & Sons, for the Remington carbines, was dated 12th October, and was received at the Ordnance Office 12th October, 1870. Q. And so it was opened separately?-A. It was not under an invitation for proposals that they made this bid. Q. You say Remington & Sons sent in that proposal on the 12th of October, 1870. That proposal was opened, and the sale was made thereupon, was it?-A. Yes, sir. By Mr. CARPENTER : Q. Is that proposal here ?-A. It is here among the papers I have. Q. Is it identified so as to be known?-A. It is a correct copy of the original on file in the Ordnance Office. I will read it if you wish. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. When you say that the proposal of Remington & Sons for these arms did not belong to the lot which was not opened on the 13th, but postponed, you mean to say that the proposal made by Remington & Sons, for these carbines, was opened?-A. I mean to say that this is a letter, not in the form of a proposal under an invitation for these arms, and that the arms here sold to Remington were not enumerated in the invitation for proposals for certain arms, dated the 12th of October. Q. Would that make any difference as to the sales of arms, whether a bid be made without an invitation or after an invitation ?—A. I was testifying merely to the effect that it was not embraced in the invitation. Q. The record shows that certain proposals that had come into the Ordnance Bureau previous to the 13th of October, and were to be opened on that day, were not opened, in consequence of the discovery that Remington & Sons were agents of the French Government. Now it appears that a proposal for the carbines was made by Remington & Sons on the 12th of October, and that that proposal was opened, does it not?—A. Here is the letter dated the 12th of October; it is not a formal proposal under the invitation. By Mr. CARPENTER: Q. Read the letter, and that will show what it is.-A. It is "General A. B. 'DYER, U. S. A., "Chief of Bureau of Ordnance, U. S. A. : "SIR: Learning from you that you will not take a less price, we hereby offer you fifteen dollars each for all the Remington old-model carbines (belonging to the U. S. Government) which are of .50 caliber, provided said guns be accompanied by the requisite number of cartridges, (500 to each gun,) at the rate of eighteen dollars per thousand. By the CHAIRMAN: "E. REMINGTON & SONS, "Per W. C. SQUIRE." Q. That was a private proposal made for that class, but was not like that where bids were proposed for the 13,000?—A. Yes, sir. By Mr. SCHURZ: Q. Were there any other such private proposals?-A. Yes, sir; here is one made by Remington & Sons, dated October 11, 1870: "COLONEL S. CRISPIN, U. S. A., "NEW YORK, October 11, 1870. Ordnance Agency in New York: "SIR: Referring to our bid to you for Spencer rifles or carbines, with cartridges proper for same, as submitted by the writer on the 9th instant, we would say that in consequence of our having learned that a considerable quantity of Spencers have been sold by you at $23 each, and that there are various persons trying to engage your surplus arms of this kind with a view to securing advanced prices from which the Government will derive no benefit, and which will simply put up prices to your and our legitimate customers and cause delay, at the same time continually jeoparding the prospect of a final disposition of the arms; therefore we do now offer you $25 25 per arm, for all Spencer rifles and Spencer carbines of calibers .50 and .52, up to the number of 19,449, which the United States Government may have of good quality and in |