(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) Senator HARRIS. Very well. Let me just say this, by way of advice to you, Mr. Von Zamft: It had been the procedure in this subcommittee, as most lately stated by the chairman at page 918 of our printed hearings in the investigation into federally insured banks, that where a witness has been indicted, it would not be the purpose of this committee to compel him to testify in the area of the indictment. So it would not be necessary for you actually to take the fifth amendment, if you feel that this testimony is in the area of the indictment of yourself personally. Mr. VON ZAMFT. Mr. Chairman, I feel any questions would be in the area, because it is a conspiracy indictment, and there were some allegations as to Frontiers Capital. Senator HARRIS. Mr. Adlerman. Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to state that from our study of the case we feel that these items that we have related have no bearing on the indictment. They are separate and distinct and apart from any of the indictments. We will give you an opportunity, if you desire, to make response to any of the testimony that was taken or given by Mr. Walsh or Mr. Worth. Would you care to make any response, or swear to any testimony, or answer any of the statements that were made by Mr. Worth or Mr. Walsh? Mr. VON ZAMFT. No, sir, I would not. Mr. ADLERMAN. You would not? Senator HARRIS. Would the reason be, to save some time, the same statement that you made earlier in the record when questioned? Mr. VON ZAMFT. Yes, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. You heard Mr. Worth say that he had instructions from you to create a cover story to conceal the cash and other transactions and transferring the money to Mr. Marmorstein as per your instructions. You do not desire to make any answer to that? Mr. VON ZAMFT. I have no comment to make. Mr. ADLERMAN. You heard the testimony of Mr. Walsh Mr. VON ZAMFT. Mr. Adlerman, there is no sense belaboring the matter. You know my answer. You know what I have heard. If you are trying to get these matters into the record, just put them in. If you want to embarrass me, you have done it quite effectively. Mr. Von Zamft, you will be respectful to the committee. We will run the committee, and we will determine the procedure that we will follow in accordance with the committee rules. What you can do, if you like, to save time, is to respectfully decline to answer on the basis you previously stated. But you must do that. If Mr. Adlerman asks you a question, and you don't want to answer it, then you may respect fully decline; for shorthand purposes, say on the basis which you previously stated. But you will have to do that. Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Von Zamft, I again state to you that you have an opportunity to reply to any of the statements made by Mr. Walsh in which he delineated the method in which the moneys were transferred and the way the money was spent. Do you wish to make any explanation? Mr. VON ZAMFT. I refuse to answer any of the questions, on the grounds previously stated. Mr. ADLERMAN. I have nothing further. Senator HARRIS. Very well. You may be excused, Mr. Von Zamft. There will be no further questions of this witness. You are excused during the remainder of these hearings. We will now call Mr. William Marmorstein. Would you come forward, please? Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. I do. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM MARMORSTEIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, HAROLD UNGERLEIDER Senator HARRIS. Would you state your name, residence, and occupation? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. William Marmorstein, 977 West 48th Street, Miami Beach, Fla., real estate broker. Senator HARRIS. You understand that you are entitled to be represented by counsel. Are you represented at these hearings by counsel? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. I am, sir. Senator HARRIS. And his name, please? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. Harold Ungerleider. Senator HARRIS. Is he present there with you now at the table? Senator HARRIS. It is also your understanding that anything you may say in these proceedings may be used against you or held against you in some other legal proceedings? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. I understand, sir. Senator HARRIS. Very well, Mr. Adlerman. Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Marmorstein, did you hear the testimony of Mr. Worth? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. I did, sir. I wish to make a statement. Senator HARRIS. Very well, you may make a statement. Mr. MARMORSTEIN. Due to the fact that a Federal grand jury has indicted myself and several others under a conspiracy charge, I respectfully ask that I not answer any questions whatsoever for fear of incriminating myself. Senator HARRIS. Is the indictment in an area or in cases which have to do with the present inquiry of this subcommittee in regard to Frontiers Capital Corp. Mr. MARMORSTEIN. Yes, sir; it is. On several occasions Frontiers Capital is mentioned in the indict ment. Senator HARRIS. As you heard me advise Mr. Von Zamft, I would also advise you, that according to the procedures of this committee you are not compelled either to testify or to take the fifth amendment, if you are under indictment on a subject related to our inquiry. Mr. Adlerman will put some questions to you, and you may either answer or decline or refuse to answer, and state your reason. Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Worth, in which he stated that he had turned over to you in cash $85,000 on one date and $30,000 in cash on another date in July 1964? Mr. MARMORSTEIN. I heard the testimony, but I refuse to answer, on the same grounds. Mr. ADLERMAN. I see no point in asking further questions, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions. You may be excused, Mr. Marmorstein. Would you come forward and be sworn? Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? sel. Mr. GORDON. I do. TESTIMONY OF MILTON GORDON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, EDWARD L. CARY AND ARNOLD WEINER Senator HARRIS. State your name, please. Mr. GORDON. My name is Milton Gordon. Senator HARRIS. Your residence? Mr. GORDON. Kensington, Md. Senator HARRIS. Your occupation? Mr. GORDON. I am an attorney. Senator HARRIS. You understand you may be represented by coun Are you represented by counsel at these hearings? Mr. GORDON. I am, sir. Senator HARRIS. They are present with you. Would you identify them? Mr. GORDON. Mr. Edward Cary and Mr. Arnold Weiner. Mr. CARY. I am Edward L. Cary, 821 15th Street, NW., here in the District. Mr. WEINER. My name is Arnold Weiner, my address being 10 Light Street, Baltimore, Md. Senator HARRIS. You understand, do you not, Mr. Gordon, that anything you say here may be used or held against you in some other legal proceeding? Mr. GORDON. I do. Mr. CARY. Before you proceed, may I address the Chair, respectfully? Senator HARRIS. Yes. Mr. CARY. Two or three weeks ago, the witness, Mr. Gordon, was served with a subpena to appear at this hearing today. Subsequent to that subpena, and we don't challenge its validity, an indictment was returned in the city of Miami on Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday morning, I have forgotten which I conferred with Mr. Gordon on Thursday afternoon. He told me of the indictment, and I immediately called Mr. Adlerman, your distinguished counsel, and asked if I might confer with him. I went up to the committee room and talked to Mr. Adlerman, and thought I was apprising him of the indictment, but Mr. Adlerman was aware of the fact at the time I talked to him that this indictment was outstanding against the witness Gordon. Senator HARRIS. I don't think we have to go into this detail, Mr. Cary. Mr. CARY. I have a specific purpose, Mr. Chairman. I know it is getting late. Senator HARRIS. If you are going to testify, we have to swear you in. Is your point that the man is under indictment in an area related to our investigation here? Mr. CARY. Yes. That is what I was going to relate my remarks to. I was going to be as succinct as I can under the circumstances. Senator HARRIS. But Mr. Gordon will have to say so, himself. Mr. CARY. I am thoroughly aware of that, Mr. Chairman. You can be sure I am not trying to be dilatory or desultory in any aspect. What I wanted to reflect for the record was this particular matter: This committee is aware of the fact that this man is under indictment, and since I have gotten the indictment, I have had the opportunity to check the indictment. On page 2 of the indictment returned in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida, 66-287, page 2, count 1, paragraph 2, makes specific reference to Frontiers Capital Corp. Page 3, count 1, paragraph 8, makes reference to the Coin-Meter Corp. Page 7, count 3, paragraph 1, makes reference to the Lunar Enterprises. As you will recall, Senator Harris, all of these companies mentioned in the indictment have been thoroughly explained and are contained on the chart which is facing us at this particular time. It puts us in this extremely difficult and embarrassing situation. I represent a professional man who is on the horns of a dilemma. He can take two choices: He can take the fifth amendment and he is professionally embarrassed. He is reluctant to take the fifth amendment. But I think if you ask any questions involving anything on that particular chart, or anything involving Frontiers Capital Corp., of necessity I will advise him, and I have so advised him as a professional man employed by him as an attorney, his constitutional rights will be abridged if he does not exercise them at this particular time. No one knows, and none of us is clairvoyant, as indicated to Mr. Adlerman, where the answers to these questions may lead. They may be interminable, like Tennyson's brook, and go on forever. For that reason, I prefer to ask this committee at this particular time, because of the fact they are allegedly thoroughly apprised of the things that occurred in the Frontiers Capital Corp., I would ask the committee as a matter of fundamental fairness to allow the subpena to be withdrawn and let this witness be excused from this particular chair at this time, because if he takes the fifth amendment, he is going to be professionally embarrassed. I don't want to embarrass this man any more than he has been by the indictment. I make that appeal to the Chair at this particular time. Senator HARRIS. I will simply say to you, Mr. Gordon, and to your able counsel, Mr. Cary, whom we have just heard from, and your other attorney present, as I have said to Mr. Marmorstein and Mr. Von Zamft, that where you have been indicted in an area which is the subject of the inquiry of the subcommitee, you will not be compelled to testify, nor to take the fifth amendment. But I think in all fairness to you, you ought to be given an opportunity, if you desire to do so, to refute any testimony that has been received here today involving you, Frontiers Capital Corp., or those transactions which have been testified to. Mr. Adlerman will put a question to you-well, let me just do it myself, to shorten matters. Do you desire to make any statement concerning the testimony this committee has received today concerning you and your part in the transactions testified to and contained in exhibit 9, on the Frontiers Capital Corp.? Do you desire to make any testimony about that, answer any questions about it, or make any statement about it? Mr. GORDON. No. Senator HARRIS. There will be no further questions, then, and you may be excused. Mr. CARY. Mr. Chairman, out of an abundance of caution, as an attorney representing Mr. Gordon, let me suggest there is an agreement between the committee and me at this particular time that in his answering the question in that fashion, he is not waiving any constitutional rights, nor is he contumacious in his behavior. Senator HARRIS. He is waiving no constitutional rights. He acts in accordance with the statement that the chairman just stated to him. Mr. ADLERMAN. We gave him the opportunity to answer if he desired. He refused to accept it. Mr. CARY. Thank you. Senator HARRIS. Now we will call Mr. Franklyn Levenson. Would you stand and be sworn. You swear that the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. LEVENSON. I do. TESTIMONY OF FRANKLYN LEVENSON Senator HARRIS. State your name, sir. Mr. LEVENSON. Franklyn Levenson, Miami, Fla. Senator HARRIS. Your occupation? Mr. LEVENSON. Attorney. Senator HARRIS. You understand you are entitled to be represented by counsel. |