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Senator HARRIS. We will do that in a moment, as soon as Mr. Worth can either answer the question or refuse to answer the question. You are entitled to advise him. If you desire then to testify about these facts, we will have you sworn in and you can do that. We will first see whether Mr. Worth wants to respond to the questions.
Mr. WORTH. Let me at the moment, then, please, refuse to answer it.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you honestly believe that you will be incriminated by answering the truth in this case!
Mr. WORTH. I don't know, really. I don't know the law that well.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You don't know the law, but you were told this by the lawyers for the other defendants, and by Mr. Von Zamft?
Mr. WORTH. I was told this by an additional lawyer who has not appeared here yet. Mr. ADLERMAN. Who was that? Mr. Worth. He is a local Washington attorney. Mr. ADLERMAN. What is his name? Mr. WORTH. I don't remember the name. Mr. ADLERMAN. Who does he defend ? Mr. WORTH. Everything has been rather hectic. Mr. ADLERMAN. What was that? Mr. WORTH. Everything was rather hectic at noon. Mr. ADLERMAN. But who is he defending? Mr. WORTH. I really don't know. Mr. ADLERMAN. You don't know? Senator HARRIS. How did you meet him? Mr. WORTH. Sir? Senator HARRIS. How did you meet that lawyer? Mr. WORTH. I met him in the restaurant. Senator HARRIS. Today? Mr. WORTH. Yes, sir. Senator HARRIS. Who introduced you to him? Mr. WORTH. Several people. There were three people involved. Senator HARRIS. Who introduced you to him!
Mr. WORTH. Well, there was Levenson, Von Zamft, and myself. I became disturbed over this situation.
Senator HARRIS. Mr. Ungerleider, would you stand and hold up your right hand to be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God! Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD UNGERLEIDER
Senator HARRIS. And your occupation?
Senator HARRIS. Are you the attorney in this instance for Mr. Worth?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I am.
Senator HARRIS. Do you have some statement you wish to make concerning the facts he has just testified to?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. Yes. I would like to clarify two points. The first point was in the form of a statement by committee counsel, Mr. Adlerman, that Mr. Worth, the witness was taking the fifth amendment on my advice and was about to be indicted. I categorically deny both of those statements.
Senator HARRIS. That you did not advise him to take the fifth amendment ?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. That I advised him to take the fifth amendment or that he was possible as a defendant by indictment in the pending grand jury.
Senator HARRIS. Without saying what Mr. Adlerman said and so forth, just to get at what you are saying right now, have you advised this witness to take the fifth amendment?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I have not advised him to take it. I have advised him what his rights are.
Senator HARRIS. Very well.
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I told him, and I will say it without any exposure of confidential privilege, I told him that the decision is his. He has a constitutional right if he seeks to invoke it. If he does not invoke it, to tell this committee the whole truth.
Senator HARRIS. Did you tell him anything about whether or not he might be indicted ?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I told him I didn't know whether he would or not. I told him the fact that he has not been indicted is no guarantee that he wouldn't be indicted.
Senator HARRIS. Do you also represent Mr. Marmorstein? Mr. UNGERLEIDER. Yes, sir. Senator HARRIS. Do you represent any of the other witnesses here? Mr. UNGERLEIDER. No, sir. Senator Harris. You represent Mr. Marmorstein? Mr. UNGERLEIDER. I represent Mr. Marmorstein and before I left Miami I was under the impression that in addition to Mr. Marmorstein, I would be representing Mr. Worth, who I met here today at noon for the first time. I was not one of the persons who had lunch with him. Senator HARRIS. How did you come to understand that you
would be representing Mr. Worth if you had not met him before?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. Mr. Marmorstein told me that Mr. Worth had indicated representation by me in view of the fact that I was representing Mr. Marmorstein.
Senator HARRIS. Do you have anything further you would want to add to that?
Mr. UNGERLEIDER. No, sir. Senator HARRIS. Do you have anything you want to ask him? Mr. ADLERMAN. No, Mr. Chairman. Senator HARRIS. Let me say we are going to ask questions of you, Mr. Worth, and you can either answer or you can claim your constitutional right not to answer. But if you decide to do so, you will have to claim it. You are represented by counsel. You have competent advice available to you. Mr. Adlerman is going to put questions to you.
You will either have to give an answer or you will have to give some valid reason why you will not give an answer. You have the advice and counsel of your attorney available to you.
TESTIMONY OF JACK W. WORTH-Resumed
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Worth, did I interview you in Miami, Fla? Mr. WORTH. Yes sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time, did you tell me who and how someone instructed you to receive the $115,000—the $85,000, and the $30,000 that was to be deposited to your account? Were you told how you were to disburse it?
Mr. WORTH. I think I did.
Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time did you tell me you had instructions from an attorney, Mr. Cash, in Nassau? Did you tell me that he gave you the instructions both as to the receipt and payment of that money?
Mr. WORTH. That is the truth, yes.
Mr. WORTH. That is what I mean; it is the truth as to what I told you at that time.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you subsequently change your mind and decide to tell us the real truth, and did you tell us the real truth at a subsequent time?
Mr. WORTH. Yes, even this morning;
Mr. WORTH. Now I am in a quandary. I don't know how to answer this, what the effect might be.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you taking the fifth amendment to protect yourself or are you taking the fifth amendment, or claiming your rights under the fifth amendment because you are embarrassed, because you don't want to hurt Mr. Marmorstein or Mr. Levenson?
Mr. WORTH. I would dislike very much to incriminate myself, that could be used against me in a Federal grand jury trial.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you remember a conversation with me on the telephone just before you came to Washington, or when we made the arrangements for you to come to Washington, in which you asked me not to put you on the same plane with Mr. Marmorstein or Mr. Von Zamft, because you felt embarrassed because you would have to testify against them?
Mr. WORTH. I probably made that statement to you.
not? Mr. WORTH. As far as I can recollect, I did.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you want to avoid meeting with them as much as possible, even to the extent this morning that you didn't want to meet them office ?
Mr. WORTH. Well, I felt a bit embarrassed after the two statements I gave you.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you tell me in my office this morning, and did you previously tell it to me in a telephone conversation, that you had
decided to tell the truth, that you actually had received instructions from Mr. Martin Von Zamft as to the receipt of this money, and that according to him you were to pay this out to Mr. Marmorstein in cash?
Mr. WORTH. Now you are referring to a transfer of funds that I became a part of at the Peoples American Bank?
Mr. ADLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. WORTH. I forgot one thing in my statement to you, that a man named Frank Martin in New York was an instigator of that same thing, too, and he advised me that Von Zamft was an associate in this transaction, some transaction. I didn't know the purpose of it.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you get your instructions from Mr. Von Zamft? Were you asked by Mr. Von Zamft to act as an agent to receive sums totaling $115,000 in two different drafts, one for $85,000 and for $30,000?
Mr. WORTH. The first instructions came from Frank Martin by telephone.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you ever meet Frank Martin ?
Mr. WORTH. I knew him, and I verified with Von Zamft that this transmittal was coming to my bank.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And did Von Zamft thereafter give you instructions on what to do with that money!
Mr. WORTH. There would be a messenger come for it.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you cash $85,000 in the bank and deliver that in cash to Mr. Marmorstein?
Mr. WORTH. Right within the bank, in the presence of a bank officer.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you, on July 27, 1964, receive a check for $30,000 and cash that in the presence of Mr. Marmorstein and the bank officer?
Mr. WORTH. At about that time. I can't recollect dates.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Was there a $30,000 cash transaction within a week after the $85,000 cash transaction?
Mr. WORTH. I am not sure, but somewhere closely related.
Mr. WORTH. The instructions I received from Martin Frank, orI don't know if it is Martin Frank or Frank Martin-were that this money would be transmitted by draft from a New York bank to my bank, care of myself as agent. I never deposited the money into my personal account.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Was that $30,000 ?
Mr. ADLERMAN. Who told you to make up a cover story to conceal how that money was paid out and to whom it was paid?
Mr. WORTH. It appears that
Mr. ADLERMAN. Let me ask it this way. I will withdraw the previous question.
Did you have a conversation with Mr. Von Zamft subsequent to these transactions in which he told you, “I have to conceal the transaction. I don't want it to be known that the money went to Marmorstein, or that I told you what to do with the money. Would you make up a story and tell anybody that comes to you that you had instructions from a lawyer in Nassau to receive the money, and that you paid it to an agent, a Canadian, at the instructions of this lawyer in Nassau ?”
Mr. WORTH. Yes, that took place.
Mr. WORTH. I think he called me on the phone and said he had to make it appear, in order to satisfy some other attorneys and clients, that this money went to Nassau to purchase some sort of a business.
Mr. ADLERMAN. When you were questioned by Mr. Walsh and myself in Miami, did you tell us that you received instructions from a Mr. Cash who was an attorney in Nassau, who told you the money would be sent in a bank draft to your bank in Miami, and that you were then to disburse that to a Canadian agent? Or disburse that to a man that he would send to you?
Mr. WORTH. Yes, a courier.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Subsequent to that, when I spoke to you again on the telephone, you said, “I want to tell the truth now. The truth was I did not get the instructions from Nassau. I got the instructions from Mr. Von Zamft." Is that correct?
Mr. WORTH. That is correct.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Was that after you got a letter from Mr. Cash, a copy of which you sent to us!
Mr. WORTH. After I received a letter from Cash. Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Cash, a copy of which you sent to us?
Mr. WORTH. Which he refuted. He refuted the story.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Worth, did you also get a check for $1,500 and endorse that over to Mr. Marmorstein?
Mr. WORTH. I can't really recollect that, Mr. Adlerman. I don't recollect that at all.
Senator HARRIS. Mr. Worth, I hand you a copy of a check drawn on the Metropolitan Bank of Miami in the amount of $1,500 for yourself, Jack Worth, agent, as payee, and a copy of the endorsements on the back which shows an endorsement "Jack Worth, agent," and under that an endorsement, "Bill Marmorstein."
I ask you if you can identify that copy as being the correct copy of the original check which you received and endorsed? [Document handed to witness.]