those actually derived from it, he thought the public paid ten to one more than they ought, and that the expense of the officer's house might have secured the whole of the benefits obtained from this expensive establishment to the navy. | officers so employed, and that the office was sometimes a good one, and at other times the reverse. Now, upon inquiry, he found that the et ceteras in this case were no less personages than the duchess of Oldenburgh, the prince royal of Wirtemberg, prince Hardenberg, the Russian and Prussian ambassadors, generals Bulow, and Yorck, with their several suites. Mr. Ponsonby rose to do justice to the feelings of captain King, who would be the last man in the service to take money for a duty which he did not perform, or to make a demand which was not strictly and honourably correct. Now, the fact was, that instead of his having made one trip from Dover to Calais with those illustrious personages, he had made four or five, and was actually out of pocket several hundred pounds, over and above what he had been allowed for that duty. Mr. Croker said, that the circumstance of the item having been annexed to the name of marshal Blucher alone, might have arisen from his name being first on the list in the warrant, and that it was thought unnecessary to insert the whole. Mr. Croker explained. He said the situation of paymaster of widows pensions was first regulated under a charter of George the 2nd. A great deal of trouble was involved in the duties annexed to it; for the parties were paid quarterly, and in their several places of residence. An alteration had lately been made in this office, and the present remuneration was agreed upon, in lieu of the emolument arising to the paymaster from the use of the public money which he occasionally held, and which left him a greater profit than his present income. The sum in the estimates was paid to the Astronomerroyal for a nautical almanack, and formed but a small part of his emoluments. The hospital at Yarmouth, if not much used now, before the expedition to Copenhagen, while the Dutch fleet was strong, and France had a formidable naval establishment at Antwerp, at that time as the eyes of Great Britain were anxiously fixed on the north, was likely to be of great importance. Had that state of things continued, it was likely that hospital would have caused a great saving not merely of money but of human life; and any expense in forming this establishment was well incurred, to avoid having recourse to those wretched places formerly Mr. Giddy said, that the salary of the in use, he meant the temporary hospitals. Astronomer-royal had very properly been Mr. Gordon would wish to know whe- increased since the death of Dr. Maskether there was any diminution in the ex-lyne, who had a large private fortune; and penses of the inspection of telegraphs? There were twenty clerks employed in time of war, and surely so many could not be necessary in time of peace. Mr. Bennet wished to know what was done to compensate captain Usher, or whether there was any measure in progress to do him justice. Sir Charles Pole said, that captain Usher was an officer of the highest merit, and that his services and his wounds deserved from his country the greatest attention. Lord Castlereagh said, that the business with regard to captain Usher was in a state of progress. Mr. W. Smith took notice of the sum of 6021. paid to captain King, for carrying marshal Blucher, &c. &c. from Dover to Calais. He had heard there was a mode of average struck for the remuneration of Mr. R. Ward said, that as to the emoluments of the Astronomer-royal, they were derived from three sources-from the Admiralty to the amount mentioned in the estimate, from the Ordnance the sum paid was 100%. with coals and candles, and the Royal Society paid about as much; so that, in all, the salary amounted to 7 or 800%. a year, together with Flamstead House. he thought a still greater increase would be advisable. If the establishment at Flamstead-house was increased, so as to form in some sort a school of astronomy, the expense would be amply repied by the beneficial influence of such a measure upon astronomical science, as far as it was applicable to naval purposes. Mr. Whitbread observed, that the minuteness of the estimates was truly laudable, and was carried to such an extent that 41. was inserted as the expense of catching rats-[A laugh]. He was no tsurprised at this item; but from the multitude of rats' in that department, he had expected to have found another item of 401. for burying those which had been taken. But, passing over to larger matters, he wished to point the attention of the Secretary of the Admiralty to the notorious fact, fensive to him, he of course must be satisfied. He said, there would be no time lost in taking the improvements which the hon. gentleman had mentioned into consideration. The first lord of the Admiralty had made personal visits to the dock-yards for the sake of consulting the different officers on the propriety of alte rations in the present system. that the improvements which to a wonderful extent had been made in all the private concerns of the country, were so slow in finding their way into the public establishments, and especially the dock-yards. He particularly noticed the making of ropes, the improvement in which, he said, was known and practised every where outside of the dock-yards, but was not at all attended to within. It was a disgrace to Mr. Whitbread hoped they should see this nation that improvements which were the fruits of those visits, though he was so generally known should not be adopted aware the greatest obstacle existed to the in the dock-yards, where they were per- introduction of improvements, on account haps more than in any other place neces- of the hostile disposition towards novelties sary. The Admiralty were in full force on the part of the old stagers, if they on the opposite side of the House, and he might be called so, of the dock-yards. trusted they would explain away this This opposition was remarkable in the strange neglect. In the same place, and case of the stone basin at Portsmouth, of almost in the same spot, at Portsmouth, which the advantage was now universally where Mr. Brunell's improvements were acknowledged. He was glad to find the carrying on-improvements that, two or hon. baronet restored to good-humour. three centuries ago, would have had their He did not know there was any more coningenious authors hanged for witchcraft-nexion between him and rats, than betrucks were to be seen in a public depart-tween him and cats-[A laugh.] ment that would disgrace one of those American tribes whose boundaries were so lately the cause of contention. He trusted such imperfections would be answered to the public. He hoped the attention of the Admiralty would be turned to this subject, and that he might have the pleasure of witnessing the beneficial consequences of bis suggestion. Sir George Warrender said, that he could not avoid noticing the very pointed allusion of the hon. gentleman to him, in his observation on the item for killing rats. He should be always ready to meet the hon. gentleman, not only in that House, but on any other ground. Mr. W. Smith rose to order. The hon. baronet must surely feel that he was wholly unjustified in making any personal allusion to his hon. friend, who was merely discharging a public duty, in the inquiries which he had made. Mr. Ponsonby, in a vein of pleasantry, observed, that he was not quite satisfied as to this affair of the rats; for in the same page in which 41. was charged for the extirpation of these animals, he saw 21. 2s. expended upon the keeping of cats. Now, if the latter charge were correct, the former was objectionable, for surely the cats ought to have destroyed the rats, without the additional expense incurred in the returns. Why, therefore, should it not to be explained? Mr. Croker replied, that the cats were kept in a different yard from that occupied by the rats. But quitting that weighty consideration, and coming to one perhaps as important, he wished to defend the first lord of the Admiralty from any indisposition towards the introduction of machinery into the public works. Among the workmen it was first necessary to explode vulgar prejudices, before this Mr. Whitbread was sorry his hon. friend improvement could be made sufficiently had taken the trouble of explaining his operative. This had, however, been in a conduct, as he did not think it wanted great degree effected, particularly in the any explanation. He did not think any sawing branches of work. A basin was in thing the hon. baronet had said was dis- progress at Sheerness, similar to that of orderly, and would wish he had finished Portsmouth, and two steam-engines were his observations. He did not see what in forwardness. He hoped, in the course relationship the killing of rats had to the of next year, these would be more gene hon. baronet. He was sure he had not ral, and when their effects were fully intended any thing offensive to any gen-visible, that they would be introduced by tleman in what he had said on the sub- degrees into the great yards. ject. Mr. Forbes suggested, that a great imSir G. Warrender said, that as the hon.provement in the manufacture of cables gentleman had not intended any thing of- could be introduced. Though not adopt ed at the public yards, it was well known in the private ones. He himself, in India, had experienced its preference. Admiral Hope did not approve the plan alluded to. Mr. Whitbread noticed the great superiority of Huddart's cables, which he had heard naval men say they would sooner trust their lives to, than to the King's-yard cables. Admiral Hope testified his experience of the goodness of the King's cables. Manual labour might be diminished; but every new plan might not be executed so fast in the King's as in the merchants' yards. Mr. Whitbread said, that the advantage in the difference between a machine and manual labour was great. The machine was never drunk, never went off to visit a friend, never was idle when wanted, and always made the same thing in the same way. It was not exposed to the difference arising from various hands. Such was the advantage in Huddart's invention. The anchor forges in the dock-yards, he was convinced, might be improved, and that it might be found unnecessary for a man's hand to wield a hammer. Machinery might effect this, and every blow given would be the same, and money and human labour saved. In Sweden the hammer was worked by water. The steam-engine was applicable to all such purposes. Mr. Brunell or Mr. Maltby would be very able to do what was wanted as well as in the present system of the smitheries. Sir Joseph Yorke approved of the mode in practice for making ropes. Captain Pellew said, he had procured one of the other cables in China, which he found unserviceable. Mr. Forbes repeated his own experience of their superior value. Mr. Croker said, that as soon as they could be exempted from the liability to snap, which they possessed, he hoped they would generally be made use of in the navy. Mr. Whitbread asked, whether it was in contemplation to give the captains of men of war chronometers, which, he said, would be of great use in long voyages. Sir J. Yorke said, that that subject was under the contemplation of the board of Admiralty. The Resolution was then agreed to. On the second Resolution," That 355,000!. be granted to his Majesty for wages for the said 20,000 men, for ten lunar months, commencing the 1st April 1815, at 14. 15s. 6d. per man per month, Mr. Whitbread said, that as an increased number of seamen had been voted, it was a proper occasion to remark, that complaints had been made of the very inadequate manner in which the navy had been manned during the last American war. He hoped in future the Admiralty would proportion the number of ships to the number of good scamen they could procure, so that we might meet the Americans, if a war unfortunately broke out again with that people. Admiral Hope said, it was impossible that we could man a navy of 70 or 80 sail as well as five or six frigates were manned by the Americans. If the number of our ships were as small, we could man them four times over equally well. Our ships had always been found to be better manned than the French, and as well manned as a large fleet could be. The hon. admiral expressed his confidence that the best seamen would be found to come forward with alacrity to serve their country, secured as they were of reward for their services from the liberal measures which had been adopted for that purpose, especially with regard to the institutions at Greenwich and Chatham. Mr. Forbes alluded to the case of masters' mates and midshipmen, which he conceived to be one of extreme hardship, deserving the attention of the House; and observed, that he would, on some future occasion, notice it more particularly. Admiral Hope stated, that it was the intention of the lords of the Admiralty to keep afloat all those young men who bad served during the war, as far as it was possible; and for that purpose a double proportion of inferior officers was to be kept up. He pronounced a warm eulogium on the conduct of the British navy, during which the gallant admiral was loudly and repeatedly cheered. Mr. Whitbread was glad that an opportunity had occurred for the gallant admiral's paying a tribute to the petty officers of the navy. Nothing could be more grateful to them, than to know that their services bad been duly appreciated. He had heard, however, that there were instances in which ships had been sent to sea without their complements: and in one case, a gallant admiral had actually weighed his men, and sent up the account to the Admiralty, that they might know the state of his crew. Mr. Croker did not deny but that at the latter period of the war many of the sea men were of a very inferior kind, but asserted positively that no ship ever was sent to a foreign station without having her complement of men. Mr. Whitbread said, that as the hon. Secretary bad spoken with such confidence, he should refer to the officers from whom he had received his information upon this subject, and take occasion to state the result to the House. Admiral Hope, in corroboration of what fell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, observed, that the standing order was, not to suffer any ship to leave the harbour without her due complement. Mr. Forbes expressed an apprehension that the claims of the midshipmen had not been sufficiently attended to, and therefore he should feel it his duty to bring the subject before the House. Sir Joseph Yorke stated, that the Admiralty had done much for the meritorious class of officers alluded to by the hon. gentleman, but it had not yet done all that was intended. With regard how ever to what was urged on the score of length of service, merely as a claim to promotion, he had to observe, that several midshipmen had completed perhaps ten years of service in a French prison, without having seen two years previous service on board; and would any naval officer consider such persons qualified to perform the duties of a lieutenancy? Lord Nugent said, he was informed that among our squadron off the Scheldt in the course of the late war, two sail of the line wanted 130 men each of their full complement, and that the ship of commodore Owen was equally defective. Mr. Rose expressed a hope that the hon. gentleman would not persist in his motion with respect to the midshipmen, as the only effect of such a motion would be to render that deserving class discontented. He had no doubt that the claims of those officers, in whose favour he felt a lively interest, would be duly attended to. A great number of them indeed had already been promoted, and such as were not promoted were to be maintained afloat, so that at all events such meritorious persons should not be turned adrift. Mr. R. Ward, to show the impartiality of the Admiralty Board, cited a case in which he had applied to the first lord in favour of a midshipman, who was a relation of his own; but his application was refused on this ground, that others who had a prior claim from long service were not yet promoted. Mr. Whitbread observed, that it had been much complained of, that while military officers in an enemy's prison were allowed the discount which, from difference of exchange, they were obliged to pay, the same allowance was refused to naval officers in the same situation. He could not conceive how such a distinction could be tolerated upon any principle of equity. He recollected that when a motion was brought forward by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Bennet), to place the officers of both departments on the same footing, when on foreign service, that motion was resisted upon this ground, that naval officers had opportunities of obtaining prize-money, from which military officers were excluded; but no such ground could apply, where neither were in actual service, when both were in a prison. He begged, therefore, to call the attention of the Admiralty to this subject, and trusted that the naval lords would take measures to have justice done to their brethren. Mr. Croker said, he had the satisfaction to state, that the moment the case alluded to by the hon. gentleman was represented to the first lord of the Admiralty, measures were taken to place naval officers on the same footing with the officers of the army. The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution," That 907,5021. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying half-pay, superannuations, allowances, and pensions to officers of his Majesty's Navy and Royal Marines, their widows and relatives, for the year 1815," Mr. Ponsonby took occasion to panegyrise the justice and policy which dictated an advance of the half-pay of naval officers in 1806; observing, that he should have been better pleased if that advance had gone farther, and adding, that he should feel it his duty, on an early occasion, to make a proposition to the House upon this subject. This Resolution, together with the remaining ones, were agreed to without opposition. EMIGRANTS.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "That 60,000l. be granted to his Majesty, to enable him to grant relief to such of the suffering clergy and laity of France, Toulonese, and Corsican emigrants, Saint Domingo sufferers, and Dutch naval officers, who may here tofore have received allowances from his Majesty, and who may not have been enabled to return to their own countries in the course of the present year, or who, from services performed, or losses sustained in the British service, may have special claims upon his Majesty's justice or liberality." He said, that of this sum 36,000l. was to have been paid by the King of France, but recent occurrences had prevented the performance of that engagement. He thought several of those persons had a peculiar claim on England, as they had been employed by our Government, and had wasted their property in our service. Sir M. W. Ridley said, that however ungracious it might seem to make any objection to a motion of this nature, he thought it necessary upon such a motion to suggest the propriety of considering the distresses and burthens of our own people, and to impress upon his Majesty's ministers that no French emigrants capable of serving their King in his present emergency, should be encouraged to withdraw from him by the prospect of a provision from this country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer assured the committee, that care would be taken to provide against any such encourage. ment as the hon. baronet had stated. The fact, however, was, that it was not proposed to provide for any persons from this fund but such as from old age and infir mity were unable to afford any active support to their Sovereign in his present state. Mr. Whitbread asked, whether the proposed vote was in addition to the 15,000l. already voted? The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered in the affirmative, adding that out of the 15,000l. alluded to, 8,000l. had been granted as a final compensation to some emigrants on quitting the country. Mr. Whitbread said, that as it had been stated that 1600 emigrants had lately come into the country, he hoped it was not intended by putting them on the Alien list to make those emigrants an additional burthen upon us; for if so, the powers of the Alien Act might be abused, by keeping some foreigners in the country, as they had been heretofore abused by sending other foreigners out of it. The hon. member asked, whether in the course of their government the Bourbons had, according to promise, paid any sum to our Government, as a compensation for the advances made to the emigrants, and whether any of the persons finally compensated, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, had again returned to this country? The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, that none of them so compensated had again returned. The Resolution was agreed to.-On a Resolution being proposed for a grant of 6,000l. as a final compensation to the commissioners for examining and ascertaining the boundaries of Windsor forest, Mr. Whitbread said, that he understood there was another commission which had been appointed to survey the royal parks and forests, of which a noble lord (Yarmouth), and Mr. Bicknell, solicitor to the Admiralty and the Prince Regent, were the commissioners. He wished to know who appointed those commissioners, or what authority they had to act? The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that the grant now proposed was the regular compensations to commissioners appointed under an Act of Parliament passed several years ago, for three years services. As to the other commission, it had been laid before the Crown lawyers, to give their opinion as to its validity. On the motion, "That 21,000l. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the extra charge for contingencies of the three Secretaries of State, for the year 1815," Mr. Tierney said, he thought there ought to be a more detailed account set forth. He did not mean to say that the sum was too large; but he thought the House ought to be informed of the particulars for which it was given. Mr. Arbuthnot signified his readiness, upon brnging up the report, to lay the required information upon the table. Sir M. W. Ridley said, he thought the Secretaries of State were not sufficiently paid, and that the public would be better satisfied if their salaries were increased, instead of having to come to Parliament for those contingencies. Mr. Arbuthnot repelled the idea that any part of those contingencies was appropriated to the personal uses of the Secretaries of State. They were expended in coals, candles, stationery, and other articles for their offices. Sir M. W. Ridley explained, and said that he had no intention of insinuating any thing like what the right hon. gentleman seemed to apprehend. |