The CHAIRMAN. The bills introduced were designed to strengthen the law. That is the object.

Mr. BEACHAM. Yes; I know it is the easiest thing in the world to introduce a bill, but there is one bill introduced for one interest and another bill about another, and so on, and they don't get you anywhere.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, Mr. Beacham?
Mr. BEACHAM. No, thank you; that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no other questions we will call the next.
Mr. LIGHTFOOT. Mr. Bischoff.

STATEMENT OF GUSTAVE BISCHOFF, PRESIDENT OF THE ST. LOUIS INDEPENDENT PACKING CO., ST. LOUIS, MO.

The CHAIRMAN. Kindly give your name.

Mr. BISCHOFF. Gustave Bischoff.

The CHAIRMAN. And your connection?

Mr. BISCHOFF. I am the president of the St. Louis Independent Packing Co., of St. Louis.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Bischoff.

Mr. BISCHOFF. I came here to-day to say to you that we don't need this additional legislation. Or legislation, so to say, hampering us in our business. We now have all of the regulation that I think we ought to have in our line of business, meaning the Government inspection service, or the authorities.

Now does anyone want to put a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to comment on any of the proposed bills, or state what your objections are to legislation, or any proposed legislation?

Mr. BISCHOFF. I think that we now have all the expense and all the hampering that we should have in business.

The CHAIRMAN. You are opposed to any legislation?

Mr. BISCHOFF. Yes, sir.

Mr. GERNERD. You would not say that the inspection bill did not serve a very good purpose?

Mr. BISCHOFF. Splendid purpose.

Mr. GERNERD. You think it serves a very good purpose?

Mr. BISCHOFF. Yes, indeed, splendid.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything more to say, Mr. Bischoff? Mr. BISCHOFF. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all then. We are very much obliged to you, sir.

Have you any others?

Mr. LIGHTFOOT. Yes; we have; we have Mr. Krey, of St. Louis. We have several gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, who would like to be heard to-day, so that they can get away, and in view of the recess that was taken, if you can give us the time now, we would be much obliged.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we will hear from Mr. Krey.

STATEMENT OF FRED KREY, PRESIDENT OF THE KREY PACKING CO., ST. LOUIS, MO.

The CHAIRMAN. Give your name.

Mr. KREY. Fred Krey.

The CHAIRMAN. And give your connection.

Mr. KREY. I am president of the Krey Packing Co., and also represent the St. Louis local packers.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. KREY. We had a meeting of the local packers of St. Louis, and I am here representing them. As far as the local packers are concerned, we protest against any legislation, and I also say the same thing for the Krey Packing Co.

The CHAIRMAN. You protest against any legislation, do you, Mr. Krey?

on us.

Mr. KREY. Yes, sir; we protest against any legislation. We think there is too much legislation that puts too big a burden and expense And the packing business, as Mr. Taliaferro and some others have stated here in their evidence, has lost money during the last few years. That is true of all of the packing-house people. I know that our company has lost money for the last two years and a half now, and for the first five months in this year we are way over $100,000 in the hole, and we are in bad shape. And we think that there is too much legislation. The packing business has been losing money and we are in bad shape.

Mr. GERNERD. What is the capitalization of your company, Mr. Krey?

Mr. KREY. $990,000.

Mr. GERNERD. And you do a business of how much?

Mr. KREY. We kill all the way from 1,000 to 2,000 hogs a day. Mr. GERNERD. When did you begin in this business? How long ago was your company organized, and how long have you been in the packing business?

Mr. KREY. Started about 39 years ago in a very small way.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you account for that loss; how was it incurred?

Mr. KREY. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. How do you account for that loss?

Mr. KREY. Well, I think a good deal of it is in the climbing of the market, and also the very big proportion of running expenses, the expenses getting so high. You might say it refers to coal, labor, boxes, cans, and anything that you might mention, all of which have gotten so high in price.

Gentlemen of the committee, if you would like for me to do so, I have a little statement that shows just how much money I have lost and which I could put into the record. I can give it to you showing for the last five months, or for two years and five months, or for three years and five months, or including a number of years past. I do know that in my 39 years' experience

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). The losses that you may have suffered will not be the subject of any legislation. You do not suggest to this committee any legislation to meet that, do you?

Mr. KREY. No. But if you are going to legislate, we will surely have to make reports, and that is a hardship on a small concern, to

change their books. I want to say to you that this is the first time I have been to anything like this this hearing. I used to think that a Congressman had a snap, an easy thing, but I can now see your end of it. You gentlemen have got the farmer on your backs, and he comes in and complains because the price received by him is not high enough for his live stock-and the consumer comes along and complains that what he buys is too high, and you have troubles of your

own.

The CHAIRMAN. There has not been very much complaint before the committee.

Mr. KREY. And, as I said, on the other hand, the people, the consumers, complain that stuff is being sold at too high a price. You can not satisfy them both, unless the packer has had too much profit here lately, and that is not the case at this present time. I do not know what you can do about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the question is, is regulation necessary? Mr. KREY. Not as far as I can see.

The CHAIRMAN. If so, what sort of regulation should we have? Mr. KREY. I do not see any need for regulation.

Mr. GERNERD. In other words, there is nothing wrong in the packing business except that the packers are losing money?

Mr. KREY. That is all. I can see no need for regulation. We might need some legislation to let us make some money. But that is not any fault of yours and you can not do that. Conditions have got to right themselves. The country at large is on too high a basis, I may say, if conditions do not change. Transportation and other things have got to get down on a lower basis. There are a good many things that it would be cheaper to let rot, like the fruit in California, than attempt to handle them. The surplus livers to-day I would be glad to give to the poor. I would give these livers to China or to Germany or give them to you gentlemen if you want them, for nothing. That is true as to my surplus livers, and there are a lot of other things in the same position.

How are you going to remedy the situation? Suppose you take the matter of hair, and a few weeks ago I said to one of my competitors:

Gee, I struck it bad on everything.

And then I contracted for the sale of my hair. Just two weeks ago the gentleman who took my hair came from Chicago, a young man, or a comparatively young man, and I had not sold him any hair for three years, and now this year I had contracted for it. He came to me and laid his cards on the table. He owed Mr. Bishop's son, who testified before me, he owed him some money he said. And what did he say to me? It was this:

Gentlemen, I come down here to let you know that all my contracts are canceled and I am broke.

He then added:

I owe you some money and do not want to go into bankruptcy, and I offer you my plant in Chicago.

Well, we could see that the young man did not want to go into bankruptcy. Mr. Bishop, jr., and myself offered the young man the hair for six months for nothing with the expectation that it would give him a chance to recoup himself. This young man, or com

paratively young man, I judged him to be about 35 years of age, looked up and seemed to be happy. A few minutes later he kinda looked down, and we could see that he rather quivered, and then in a short while he looked up again and said:

Gentlemen, I surely thank you, but if I get the hair for nothing the expense of making it up eats me up. I thank you.

And I did not get anything for my hair. Now, those are the conditions confronting us to-day. We are almost in the same condition as your man down there. It is a horrible condition.

The CHAIRMAN. How about hides?

Mr. KREY. Mr. Chairman, I only kill about 50 or 75 cattle a day, something like that, just for a local concern.

The CHAIRMAN. How about tankage?

Mr. KREY. I myself let about 150 men go the first of last month, and I intend to run my tankage down the river. That is, I will have to haul then.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no market for by-products?

Mr. KREY. That is where the trouble comes in, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee. Those men who were in the tankage room were paid 52 cents an hour, or they were getting 60 cents an hour and they were reduced to 52 cents an hour by Judge Alschuler's decision, which the Government fixed here at Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the present price of packer hides?

Mr. KREY. I sell my hides green, and I get from about 6 cents to 7 or 8 cents a pound for them.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did you get for them a year ago? Mr. KREY. If I am not mistaken the price was around 45 to 50 cents. The CHAIRMAN. How about beef? How does the wholesale price compare with that of a year ago?

Mr. KREY. Well, as I say, the beef end I have nothing at all to do with. My son-in-law handles that.

The CHAIRMAN. How about pork or hams?

Mr. KREY. Hams are comparatively high and so are pork loins, comparatively speaking. My hogs last week cost $8.35 a hundred or somewhere around that, and I never saw them so high. But that is as somebody else said this morning about lamb chops and selected cuts that the people want. That is the only thing you can sell.

Gentlemen of the committee, I will give you my statement if you wish it.

The CHAIRMAN. No; I do not think the committee would be interested in your personal affairs. We want to find out something about the business. The contention is that the price of live stock has been materially reduced.

Mr. KREY. It has.

The CHAIRMAN. But that the wholesale price of the finished product has kept up; that there has not been a decrease in price to correspond with the decrease in price of the live stock.

Mr. KREY. Mr. Chairman, I hear that same thing all over the

country.

The CHAIRMAN. You have explained that in part. Now what else have you to say about that matter?

Mr. KREY. I hear the same song from my friends wherever I go. I have been from San Francisco around the central part of the country, and now I come here, and it was only a few months ago that I

was on the grand jury, and there were new friends I have never met before. When they found out I was in the packing business of course they right away branded me as one of the robbers. Of course they do not understand the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. If the packers are losing money, how about the retail price of meat products?

Mr. KREY. Well, that is what they are complaining about-the

consumers.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you state how retail prices compare with the price of the live animal?

Mr. KREY. No; I can not.

The CHAIRMAN. You come in contact with them?

Mr. KREY. I come in contact with them and have a good many friends who are retail butchers. They have done well here lately. That is all I know about the matter. I do not know what they sell the meat products at. But the same question was put to me by some man when I sat in the grand jury, and these men wanted to know whose fault it was. I told him it was their own fault. They

wanted to know why. I said:

As long as you go to that butcher and pay him the price he asks and he does not lose a single customer, he would be a darned fool to come down in price. But you tell your wife to go and shop around.

I told him the trouble was that when somebody tries to reduce the price and advertises a reduced price the average consumer pays little or no attention to him.

Now, take hides; and when I bought a pair of shoes a few weeks ago, black shoes, I paid $5 for them, and I have them on at this

What did I do? I looked around. I want to patronize the fellow who sells within reason. And so it is that I say it is the people's fault, these high prices. The old gentleman here who represented the farmers told you why the expense went on. Of course

I do not know the retail end of it, and he may have his story all right. But you will have to get that from him. And the retailer may have another story.

The CHAIRMAN. The expense to him would be cost of distribution. He has to pay rent, clerk hire, telephone hire, and so on.

Mr. KREY. It is all on a high basis. If you legislate too much, it may do more harm than good. If you can legislate like you did in the matter of the meat inspection law, all right. That was a good law. Or if you can legislate as I have heard about the Interstate Commerce Commission stopping rebates-that was a very good thing.

But, gentlemen of the committee, be careful. Otherwise you may be just in the same condition in a year or two, and the people will be cursing you just like some people are cursing to-day. Maybe some of you Congressmen have voted for some bill, and you thought it was a good thing; you were satisfied you were doing a good thing but may be it did not turn out all right. Sometimes these things do not work out so well. Legislation can not cure all the evils. If you pass some one of these bills, it is a question what the commission you will provide for will do. It is surely going to mean an additional expense; that is a cinch; and it has got to be paid from some source. The CHAIRMAN. Isn't it true that proper regulation is protection to the honest vendor?