Mr. FASCELL. One of the most difficult areas in this whole business is coordination so that you can eliminate duplication to the maximum extent possible. Where you have so many people in the business, what do you do to try to assure yourselves that you are not running up the same railroad track?

Mr. DYAL. This is where it becomes important to have a broad base of relationships with these organizations and within the countries to assess a kind of background of who is doing what. To give you an example of this, because of the complexity of a country like Brazil where the private nonprofit and semi-autonomous sector is huge as it relates to socio-economic development at the grass roots level, and because we felt we should not take any chances on a hit-or-miss approach, we have asked for a rapid study in Brazil of those organizations.

This is being done by a Brazilian institution in Rio.

Mr. FASCELL. That is Brazilian. You are not talking about U.S. organizations operating in Brazil.

Mr. DYAL. Many of them are U.S. organizations operating in Brazil, too. They would be looking at the total scope.

Mr. FASCELL. One of the things the committee tried to do a good many years ago was to establish a continuing review of U.S. non-profit, voluntary, religious organizations in order to give them confidence in compiling their programs on a country-by-country basis so that there would be an exchange of necessary information and so that everybody could do a better job. I do not know what AID ever did about that. I have a funny feeling it did not do much if anything. Do you know anything about it at all?

Mr. DYAL. No, if such exists, I am not aware of it.

Mr. FASCELL. We tried to get someone to keep this kind of thing updated so it would be immediately available to anybody in the business. Mr. DYAL. I expect there is a compilation, whether it is updated

or not.

Mr. TRAGEN. It was updated last year.

Mr. FASCELL. There is another compilation outside of AID. I do not know who does this. Some New York outfit.

Mr. DYAL. The Foundation Center in New York has been putting together during this time frame a whole compilation of private organizations. In fact, there are several such compilations going on. Mr. FASCELL. Are you fellows plugged into all of this so that everybody else knows about what you are doing?

Mr. DYAL. Yes.

Mr. FASCELL. While you are not in the public relations business, one of your main objectives is to establish credibility. You have to do that early and often. Your horn does not sound too loud to me. How are you going to get the message across to the institutions that are now in the business that here is an opportunity for some kind of cooperation? Right now it may mean only exchanging information on programs in a particular country.

Mr. DYAL. I think at some point we must take a little more aggressive step particularly as it relates to an organization.

I think we are approaching the point where this kind of thing can be done. But I am not sure the proof of the pudding can be found even in the first months of a project.

Mr. FASCELL. No, but it looks pretty good in a pot.

Mr. DYAL. We can certainly look at this. This may be the best time to look at it, Mr. Chairman. I think your question is well taken and represents a dilemma for us.

He who toots his horn early and loud before he knows the direction he is taking may have all kinds of passengers aboard his train who should not necessarily be there. And he may not even have a train.

Mr. FASCELL. Right. This leads back to another continuing problem. How do you assure yourself that what you are doing has not been tried and discarded?

Mr. DYAL. This is where compilation by informal and formal processes of project information and organization approach becomes crucial. We have within the organization a very small information center, if you want to call it that. It is not a library, but it is a beginning collection of data and background on what has been happening in social development with access to all of the centers of social development information both in Latin America and the United States. This obviously is going to give us some background and approach to the question you have raised.

I doubt, however, that any full collection or approach will ever bring you to total knowledge of what has been tried and discarded before. In a sense, we hesitate, Mr. Chairman, to use the word "innovation," which is a word that troubles me a great deal and I think I have expressed to you before my own definition of innovation which certainly will not fit anyone's development dictionary. It may simply be the assessment of a certain collection of "rights": doing the right thing, funding the right thing at the right moment with the right people and the right set of circumstances for the right purpose, and

so on.

That, in itself, is a kind of innovation because it may have been tried before but perhaps in the wrong place, with the wrong group, the wrong time, the wrong kinds of money, the wrong kinds of manipulation.

Mr. FASCELL. I think you are wise in not defining innovation as a criterion too tightly because the concept lends itself to so many interpretations.

Mr. DYAL. It almost has to be assessed project by project. Yet understand the specific impact of the project.

Mr. FASCELL. You are going to have to lay down your own interpretation of what you are talking about because, if you let somebody else do it, you are going to be in trouble. That is the way I see it.

Do you have enough experience now that you can look into the future and tell us where we are going in terms of social development and what we should do in terms of basic U.S. Government organization? How can we really convert good projects into action programs? Should we expand, contract, specialize? Do you have any glimpses of that yet?

Mr. DYAL. Only to this extent, Mr. Chairman. I think it is still too early for me to say that the experiment which we are providing, be it via this organization, is a success or failure or what-have-you. What we have proved to date and it is important to recognize that, is that there can be a U.S. Foreign Assistance approach which is responsive to initiatives, motivation, and resources of an indigenous Latin or

Caribbean organization and which is non-manipulative and which does not involve total funding. I think this concept should be expanded in time. Probably looking particularly at Latin America, there is a need for a variety of organizational responses to Latin America.

I, personally believe there is an important multilateral approach which the United States can provide which is important through the Inter-American Development Bank, and other organizations because they provide a certain approach. It is interesting in conversations with those organizations to discover that they are interested in what we are doing, not because they see us as a substitute for what they are doing but because we are tackling problems that are pinpointed in certain places with certain groups and that could conceivably be the model potential for more impact funding which they could provide at some point.

Mr. FASCELL. Are you telling me that IAF is serving as a link between U.S. institutions and Latin American Institutions?

Mr. DYAL. I would not say it is serving as a link. I would say with time and credibility, it can grow to that process, with larger funded institutions looking over our shoulder not because we are massing expertise but because we are pinpointing certain projects.

Mr. FASCELL. You and your staff have talked to a lot of Latin leaders in establishing guidelines. Is there any reason why the names of people you talked to could not be put on the record?

Mr. DYAL. Not at all.

We will be pleased to do that.

Mr. FASCELL. It would be good to let us see the kind of broad spectrum of leaders with whom you discussed this whole question. I think it would lend a more understandable base to what you have done for people to realize how many you contacted and who they were. Mr. DYAL. We can do that.

(The information referred to follows:)

Since the initiation of operations we have consulted regularly with a variety of Latin American and Caribbean technicians. Our first in-depth consultation occurred at Tinker Foundation House on Long Island where my senior staff and I met for two and one-half days with eleven Latin Americans to discuss the alternative orientations, roles and policies which the Foundation might follow. Those Latin Americans present were:

Dr. Fernando Cabieses, Presidente, Institut Peruano de Fomento Educativo (IPFE), Lima, Perú

1

Dr. Ernesto Cruz, Rector, Instituto Centroamericano de Administración de Empresas (INCAE), Managua, Nicaragua

Dr. Alberto Fuentes Mohr, Instituto Centroamericano (ICAP), San José, Costa Rica

Horacio H. Godoy, Director, Facultad Latinoamericana de Ciencias Sociales (FLACSO), Santiago, Chile

Arq. Jorge Hardoy, Director, Centro de Estudios Urbanos Regionales (CEUR), Instituto Torcuato Di Tella, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Jorge Jordan, La Paz, Bolivia

Dr. Fernando de Mendonça, Scientific Director, National Commission on Space Activities (ONAE), São Paulo, Brazil

Romolo O'Farrill, Vice President, Publicaciones Herrerias, México, D. F., México

Enrique Peñalosa, Alternate Director, Inter-American Development Bank (IDB), Washington, D.C.

Dr. Roberto Figueira Santos, Reitoria, Universidade Federal da Bahía, Bahía, Brasil

Carlos Willson, Consultant-Community Development, Santiago, Chile

In addition to the meeting at the Tinker Foundation we have consulted with a wide range of people and organizations on both a formal and informal basis. The following lists are not all inclusive but represent the wide range of contacts we have made, both in Latin America and the U.S.

Attachment: As stated.

FOUNDATIONS

Mr. James F. Henry, Director, Clark Foundation, New York, N.Y.
Dr. William D. Carmichael, Ford Foundation, New York, N. Y.
Mr. Kalman Silvert, Ford Fountain, New York, N.Y.

Mr. Leslie Nichols, National 4-H Club Foundation, Washington, D.C.
Miss Martha T. Muse, The Tinker Foundation, New York, N. Y.

Dr. Michael P. Todaro, The Rockefeller Foundation, New York, N.Y.

Mr. George Farrar, The Rockefeller Foundation, New York, N.Y.

Mrs. Mildred D. Sage, President and Trustee, Inter-American University Foundation, New York, N.Y.

EMBASSIES IN WASHINGTON

Mr. Lorne Sheldon Clark, First Secretary, Canadian Embassy
His Excellency, Carlos Manuel Muniz, Embassy of Argentina

Mr. Raul Alfredo Estrado-Oyuela, Embassy of Argentina

His Excellency, Valerie Theordore McComie, Embassy of Barbados

His Excellency, Edmundo Valencia Ibanez, Embassy of Bolivia

Mr. Rodrigo Mendes Amado, Brazilian Embassy

His Excellency Orlando Letelier, Embasy of Chile

Mr. Fernando Alegria (address is the same as above)

His Excellency, Dr. Douglas Botero-Boshell, Embassy of Colombia

His Excellency Rafael Alberto Zuniga, Embassy of Costa Rica

His Excellency, Lic. S. Salvador Ortiz, Embassy of the Dominican Republic Mrs. Piedad de Suro, Embassy of Ecuador

His Excellency, Colonel Julio A. Rivera, Embassy of El Salvador

His Excellency, Julio Asensio-Wunderlich, Embassy of Guatemala
His Excellency, Rene Chalmers, Embassy of Haiti

His Excellency, Roberto Galvez Barnes, Embassy of Honduras

His Excellency, Rahman B. Gajraj, Embassy of Guyana

Mr. Johanan Bein, Counselor, Embassy of Israel

His Excellency, Sir Egerton R. Richardson, Embassy of Jamaica

His Excellency, Dr. Jose Juan de Olloqui, Embassy of Mexico

His Excellency, Dr. Guillermo Sevilla-Sacasa. Embassy of Nicaragua

His Excellency, Jose Antonio de La Ossa, Embassy of Panama

His Excellency, Dr. Roque J. Avila, Embassy of Paraguay

His Excellency, Fernando Berckemeyer, Embasy of Peru

His Excellency, Sir Ellis Emmanuel Innocent Clarke, Embassy of Trinidad and Tobago

His Excellency, Dr. Hector Luisi, Embassy of Uruguay

His Excellency, Dr. Julio Sosa-Rodriguez, Embassy of Venezuela

LATIN AMERICAN AMBASSADORS TO THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES

Argentina-Dr. Raul A. Quijano

Bolivia-Dr. Néstor Sainz, Interim Representative

Brazil-Mr. George Alvares Maciel

Chile Mr. Luis Herrera G.

Colombia-Dr. Carlos Holguin

Dominican Republic-Dr. Marco Antonio de Peňa

Ecuador-Dr. Juan Carlos Faidutti

Guatemala-Lic. Eduardo Castillo Arriola

Haiti-Dr. Fern D. Baguidy

Honduras-Dr. Tiburcio Carias Castillo

Mexico Mr. Rafael de la Colina

Panama-Lic. Nander A. Pitty Velásquez

Uruguay-Mr. Mateo Marques Seré

Venezuela-Dr. Gonzalo Garcia Bustillos

Brazil-Dr. Joao Goncalves de Souza, Sub-Diretor de Assistencia tecnica, Organization of American States

INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES (OAS)

His Excellency Galo Plaza, Secretary General, Organization of American States, Washington, D.C.

His Excellency, Dr. Carlos Sanz de Santamaria, Chairman, Inter-American Committee on the Alliance for Progress, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Walter J. Sedwitz, Executive Secretary, Inter-American Committee on the Alliance for Progress, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Theo R. Crevenna, Director, Department of Social Affairs, Organization of American States, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Kirk Rogers, Director, Regional Development Unit, Organization of American States, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Robert Wieczorowski, U.S. Execuitve Director, IBRD, Washington, D.C. Dr. Gerardo A. Canet, Deputy Director, Office of Regional Development, Washington, D.C.

H. E. Antonio Ortiz Mena, President, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Henry Costanzo, Executive Vice President, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Ruben Sternfeld, Acting United States Director, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Ruben Peñalosa, Manager of Administration, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Cecilio J. Morales, Technical Director, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Paul Prebisch, Economic Commission for Latin America, Washington, D.C. Mr. David H. Pollack, Director, Joint ECLA/Institute, Washington, D.C.

Hon. Robert McNamara, President, International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Gabriel Valdes, Regional Bureau for Latin America (UNDP), New York, N.Y.

Dr. Carlos Vegega, Regional Bureau of Latin America (UNDP), New York, N.Y. Mr. John Mathiason, Associate Social Affairs Officer, Social Development Division, United Nations, New York, N.Y.

Mr. Alfredo Holt, Inter-American Development Bank, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Shig Takahashi, International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, Washington, D.C.

Mr. A. Vanistendael, Secretary-General, International Cooperation for SocioEconomic Development, Brussels, Belgium.

Mr. Robert Car-Ribeiro, Non-Government Division, Canadian International Development Agency, Ottawa, Canada.

Dr. Enrique Iglesias, Secretary-General, ECLA, Naciones Unidas, Santiago, Chile.

U.S. GOVERNMENT

Hon. John J. Jova, U.S. Ambassador to the Organization of American States, Department of State.

Hon. Douglas Henderson, Deputy U.S. Representative to the Organization of American States, Department of State.

Mr. Darrell D. Carter, Assistant Director for Latin America, U.S.I.A.

Mr. Bradford Mills, President, Overseas Private Investment Corporation.

Mr. Kenneth Davidson, Director, Community Credit Guaranty, Oversease Private Investment Corporation.

Mr. Viron P. Vaky, Foreign Service Officer.

Hon. Milton Barrall, Consulant.

Mr. William J. Jorden, National Security Council, The White House

Hon. Joseph H. Blatchford, Director, ACTION

Mr. William M. Taylor, Regional Director for Lation America, ACTION

Hon. John Hugh Crimmins, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for InterAmerican Affairs, Department of State

Hon. Robert H. Hurwitch, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, Department of State

Mr. Gerald Gomer, Desk Officer for the Dominican Republic, Department of State