it to deal with mass unemployment now, but because we need it now to deal with the threat of depression when it does come.

I want to read one paragraph on this point:

When business again declines men will be laid off and the problem of unemployment may again become serious. It will then be too late for any measures except relief for the unemployed unless we now address ourselves to the task of preventing, or at least reducing, these extreme fluctuations of business activity. Prevention as contrasted with relief is possible only through foresight.

This is a statement as timely now as when it was made by the committee headed by Owen D. Young and appointed by Herbert Hoover as chairman of the President's Conference on Unemployment in 1921. In my opinion, the full employment bill enables us, yes, requires us to deal with the problem of unemployment while there is still time, before it is too late.

I speak for the President of the United States when I tell you that he regards full-employment legislation as the basic framework upon which a large share of our efforts to solve the central problem of full production and full employment must rest. He is most anxious that the legislation be enacted at the earliest possible moment. The CHAIRMAN. You are going to submit that chart for the record! Secretary VINSON. Yes, Mr. Chairman. (The chart referred to is as follows:)

Source "Markets After the Wai-Committee for Economic Development

$6.88il.

or 73%
MORE

$7.4 Bil

$758 or 102% MORE

1940

Machinery---

1946 th Full Employment

ITEMS INCLUDED

% Above 1940

111 Office equipment.

Elec. equip, Moch tools. 106 Misc equipment..

Tractors, Form equip. 127 Trucks, Cobe, atc
Plones, Ships, Railway equipment..

99

CONSTRUCTION

The 1946 figures in this chant are based on assumptions (a) that the immediote reconversion period ends before 1946 ( This is not the case figures would be only slightly different for the later period immediately following reconversion), (b) thar 96 5 percent of those seeking employment will have productive jobs; and (c) that prices will be the same as in 1942.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, with regard to the national budget, it is fair to state, in the preparation of that budget, the Budget Bureau and other agencies of the Government who are engaged in gathering the information that go into that budget would have to start some time in July or August of the year before it is transmitted to the Congress by the President? For instance, 1945, we will say, the budget estimate for the fiscal year 1947, the preparation of that budget would be started in July of this year and transmitted to the Congress in January of 1946 for the fiscal year beginning July 1, 1946. It takes quite a time to prepare these budgets.

Secretary VINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. With any degree of accuracy.
Secretary VINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And if they were not accurate, and reliably accurate, they would be worthless. If this bill had been law in July of this year, had been enacted in June, it would have been the first of July next year before the operations under this bill, except as to the gathering of statistics and so forth, could have gone into effect?

Secretary VINSON. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, if it had been in effect in July of this year, that there would have been any publicworks program recommended. I don't know what the committee or agency that sent it up would recommend. I don't know what the attitude of the President would have been. I don't know what the joint congressional committee would have done, or what their attitude would have been.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, under the provisions of the bill the joint committee proposed under this bill is to report its findings and make its recommendations in March-March 1 of 1947.

Secretary VINSON. Right. January 1, as I recall it, is when the report would come, and the report of the joint committee would be made March 1.

The CHAIRMAN. And since the bill is not an authorization, and is purely a recommendation, it would have been necessary, if it had been authorized and had been in force, for the joint committee to make its recommendations to Congress by joint resolution. Then these recommendations would have been referred by the Speaker to the legislative committees authorizing public works or amendments to existing laws, or enactment of new laws to effect full employment. That would take some weeks of time.

Secretary VINSON. Yes, sir; and then you would have to run the gamut of the appropriations committees.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you would have to submit another budget to be transmitted by the Bureau of the Budget to Congress.

Secretary VINSON. They could be working on that while you fellows were taking care of the legislation.

The CHAIRMAN. But the earliest possible moment that an appropriation could have come under this bill if it had been enacted, would have been July 1 of next year.

Secretary VINSON. Before action could be taken.

The CHAIRMAN. Before action could be taken under the provisions of this bill, unless you waived all hearings and just reported the bill out on the basis of the President's message.

Secretary VINSON. Of course, I don't think we have gotten that far yet.

The CHAIRMAN. I know we haven't.

Secretary VINSON. Of course, it would take time; there is no question about it, but the machinery here deviates from the normal congressional machinery in one important point, and that is the additional screening by the joint congressional committee on this national budget.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been on joint committees ?

Secretary VINSON. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't think a committee composed of men as busy as these men are who would be named to this committee would have an opportunity to do much screening, do you?

Secretary VINSON. You know I don't think there is any business that faces Congress or the executive branch of the Government that is more important than maintaining and increasing the national income. We have got this monstrous debt-you see, I am in the Treasury now-we have got to raise the money to pay the bills. Now that the war is over we are going to have to pay the bills and the service charges on this debt. It is estimated that July 1 next year there will be a $273,000,000,000 debt. It may be around that; it may be a little. more. Congress and the Executive might want other things which will increase it, probably, but it will be in the neighborhood of $275,000,000,000. We have got to have a high national income.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you on that.

Secretary VINSON. Or we can't dig out, and the way you get your high national income is in prices for raw materials, wages to workers, and profit to folks who combine the two forces.

The CHAIRMAN. On productive jobs.

Secretary VINSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, section 3 of this bill is the so-called-
Secretary VINSON. Which bill?

The CHAIRMAN. H. R. 2202. That is the so-called national budget.
Secretary VINSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any law now that would prevent the President from transmitting such a budget to the Congress?

Secretary VINSON. My answer to that would be that I know of no law that would prevent him from submitting a budget, but I do think there are some limitations with regard to the manner of securing information and the planning that I think and believe all students of the problem believe is necessary for proper recommendation. And I refer to it just sort of off-hand in my statement-and that is the provision which abolishes the National Resources Planning Board. The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever hear of any recommendation of the National Resources Planning Board that went through the Congress! Secretary VINSON. Well, I don't know. The part of the National Resources Planning Board which I was coming to was the Employment Stabilization Board. I do know that that became law in 1931, and I was in the middle of that legislation. I do know that it restricted public works to projects that had been approved by the executive branch or by the Congress. I do know that in 1932, following the enactment of the law in 1931, the Garner-Rainey bill was passed by both Houses and vetoed by President Hoover. It conformed with the provisions of the 1931. Stabilization Act, except for $70,000,000 for post offices in small towns-and I know you know

what I mean. Now, as I understand the history of that-it is set out in detail in the Senate report-the Employment Stabilization Board was transferred to the Department of Commerce, and then it was abolished and its functions transferred to the National Resources Planning Board.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Pardon me. When?

Secretary VINSON. In 1934.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Was it 1935 or 1939, in the Reorganization Act? Secretary VINSON. In 1931 it passed; in 1934 I think it went to Commerce: in 1939 I think it went to the National Resources and Planning Board, and Resources and Planning was abolished in 1943. I know something about the attitude toward the National Resources and Planning Board-you know some folks think it is almost a crime to look forward and to plan. Business plans. And it seems to me the Government ought to have some sort of an agency that would collate all the information from the different agencies-make it an administration responsibility, headed up by the President, and without limiting language that hamstrings it. Let him get the advice of his Cabinet and the heads of departments, and this continuous study, and let it be his responsibility to make recommendations.

But let me say a few words in regard to a limitation imposed when Resources and Planning was abolished. I haven't gone into it extensively, but unless there has been some change in other statutes, this language is pretty clear [reading]:

Provided, That the National Resources Planning Board is abolished, effective August 31, 1943, and that the functions exercised by such Board

Which would include the functions of the Economic Stabilization Board

shall not be transferred to any other agency, and shall not be performed after such date, except as hereafter provided by law, or as authorized in the ensuing proviso of this paragraph with respect to winding up the Board's affairs.

That language is pretty strong in regard to the performance of the functions of the Economic Stabilization Board.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, would you advocate giving the President authority to freeze the appropriations for public works that had been passed by Congress?

Secretary VINSON. No; I wouldn't do that.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if this bill were to become law, and the President, or the board which is set up to make these reviews, found that in their judgment the public works could be postponed indefinitely because the construction of these public works would affect the employment situation, would reduce the available workers for private industry, you wouldn't favor that?

Secretary VINSON. No; I wouldn't favor doing that, and I don't think this bill even squints at that. As I visualize it, if a condition in our economy would arise where it was thought advisable to lessen public construction, public works, as I see it, a message would go to the joint congressional committee, they would take action and Congress would do what it, in its wisdom, thought best.

The CHAIRMAN. So without the planning board, or the planning authority or planning committee, whatever you might call it, the President now can do everything that can be done under this act?

Secretary VINSON. I have your viewpoint, Mr. Chairman, but it is an awful big mouthful to say that the President can do this and can do that. We have got a lot of things to do. The big point about this thing is the continuing agency, an agency that is continuing to study, using all the information from all the Government agencies and departments and other information, and making recommendations to him on that. In other words, it centralizes in this agency the responsibility to advise the President of the United States on this most important function.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, we have agreed that if the bill had been passed in June, it would be late spring next year, before anything could have been done by the Congress under it.

Secretary VINSON. I have never even thought of it as a panacea for all ills, or for 1946.

The CHAIRMAN. The reason for my question is this; this committee was accused last night of having the responsibility of continuing the delay in our reconversion program. I just want the record to show that if this bill had been law in June, nothing_could have been done under it before early spring of next year. I think the responsibility certainly does not rest at the door of the Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Departments, or on Congress.

Secretary VINSON. Of course, various implications may be drawn from the language the President used, but certainly this committee has responsibility for the consideration of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. And we have been considering it.

Secretary VINSON. I know, but there has been some thought-not with reference to you at all-but some of us, who watch things go along, thought maybe we saw a little hint of filibuster by those who may not be particularly friendly to permitting the House to vote upon this important measure.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, I think the record will show we invited. members of the President's Cabinet to testify first, and for reasons beyond their control they could not appear.

Secretary VINSON. At that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Monday of this week was the first time we could get the Director of Stabilization, Tuesday of this week was the first time we could get the Secretary of Commerce to appear before us, and today is the first day that was convenient for you to appear. Now, Mr. Schwellenbach, Secretary of Labor, wants to testify. "Well, he can't testify Friday; he can't testify until next week. So I don't think it is quite fair to accuse our committee.

Secretary VINSON. I am not accusing your committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I know you are not. But we have been accused. Mr. HOFFMAN. It is just passing on a rumor. Certainly the Republicans couldn't be doing it; they are in the minority.

Secretary VINSON. I know, but, as usual, they have the power of vocal expression.

Mr. HOFFMAN. They have power?

Secretary VINSON. Of vocal expression. And ofttimes more than that.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, in further defense of our committee, I think the record should show that we received telegrams to come back to Washington about 2 weeks before Congress was called to reconvene in September. I contacted the Secretary and asked him what bills.