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One can argue this, I realize. But I would think the inspectors are the most important, and perhaps 100 would be sufficient.

Senator PASTORE. On salaries and expenses, fiscal 1976, it was $213,609,000. The fiscal estimate for 1977 was $221,581,000. The House added-

Judge TYLER. About $12 million.

DEPARTMENTAL POSITION ON HOUSE ALLOWANCE

Senator PASTORE. And made it $234 million. In other words, there is an increase over the 1976 budget of last year of $19,391,00. And there is an increase of $12,419,000 by the House over the 1977 estimates.

I understand that you are accepting that figure. Is that correct?

Judge Tyler. With this caveat, Mr. Chairman. We are in a bind, Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier. We are in a position where the basic cut by the House was in LEAA. We are in the position also of raising the point with this committee as to whether or not these increases for certain positions may not be a little more than are necessary.

Senator PASTORE. You will have to help us out on that because the institution is yours and you are the ones who run it.

Judge Tyler. Yes.

RECOMMENDED ADJUSTMENTS TO HOUSE ALLOWANCE

Senator PASTORE. How much would you take out of the $12,419,000 in order to accomplish your recommendation?

Judge Tyler. I would suggest that, as to adding inspectors- I am not talking about anything but inspectors now—if we could get 100 more inspectors, it would be very helpful. I would also suggest that we don't need an increase of 200 investigators. Some smaller number would save some money and still get the job done.

I would also suggest that we don't need as many as 100 adjudicators. I would have to say in frankness, of course, that if you added all these numbers, I suppose they could be used in some fashion.

Senator Pastore. Yes.

Judge TYLER. But in a difficult time of budget restrictions and restraints, my suggestion would be that you could cut down these numbers and save money.

Senator PASTORE. All right, then will you have Mr. Pommerening work with our staff and give us item by item as to what this comes to in dollars so that we can put it before the full committee?

Judge TYLER. All right. If that is helpful we will try to do that. [The information follows:]

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At your suggestion during the course of the Department of Justice hearing yesterday, we have reviewed the restorations made by the House Appropriations Subcommittee on our 1977 budget request. While we agree that those restorations can be effectively used, we are sensitive to the Committee's concern for the LEAA program. If the Committee is seeking flexibility in the House Subcommittee restorations in order to mitigate the LEAA reductions, the Subcommittee might consider the following adjustments.

The House Subcommittee allowance for the Immigration and Naturalization Service could be reduced by 100 investigator positions and $1,314,000; $241,000 for automobiles for the investigators, and 50 adjudicator positions and $587,000. This would reduce the funding for the Service by $2,142,000 to $231,858,000.

The House Subcommittee allowance for the Federal Bureau of Inves tigation might be reduced by 101 positions and $1,705,000 for Freedom of Information Act activities and $1,762,000 in funds added for withingrade increases. This would reduce the funding for the Bureau by $3,467,000 to $490,510,000.

The combined actions total 251 positions and $5,609,000 which the Subcommittee could eliminate from the House Subcommittee allowance for these organizations. This would be consistent with the Administration's desire to restrict the growth in the number of new positions in the Executive Branch. The funding level of $5,609,000 can be added to the restoration requested for the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, raising that restoration to $72,601,000. The total request for the Department would remain within the President's budget level.

Sincerely,

Glen E. Pommerening
Assistant Attorney General

for Administration

BREAKDOWN OF INS BUDGET REQUEST

Senator HRUSKA. Could you give us a breakdown in that same field of the budget request of $221,581,000 in terms of these investigators, inspectors, and so on, which would be comparable to the number that you think should be increased?

Judge Tyler. I think I do. For example, in that $221,581,000 budget request figure, there was a cut in inspectors of 133 positions to achieve that.

Senator HRUSKA. A cut of present inspectors?
Judge TYLER. Yes, that is right.

Senator PASTORE. So what the House did was give them 133 and 100 more?

Judge TYLER. I am suggesting that perhaps this committee might find it appropriate not to be quite so generous so that we would have some restraints on new positions and also perhaps benefit LEAA, which has been cut rather severely, as the committee knows.

Senator PASTORE. We are going to hit LEAA. That is a horse of another color. So you work that out with our staff and let's get a figure.

Mr. POMMERENING. We will.

Senator PASTORE. If you people think you can do a good job with lesser people, we are all for it. We are all for it.

HOUSE ACTION ON THE FBI BUDGET

Judge TYLER. With regard to the FBI, we are very pleased with the House restoration of the administratively uncontrollable overtime and some significant money for training. This, of course, most simply and obviously affects the Quantico School, which, as you know, we think is important. It is also important to the Federal and local police officials who have come to look upon it as a major source of their uplifting and training.

It might be possible, however, Mr. Chairman, in working with Mr. Pommerening and the Bureau, to cut back some of the additional positions that the House restored and still achieve what the FBI feels strongly is important with regard to both education and Freedom of Information Act work.

As this committee perhaps knows, it has to be said that the FBI continues to lead certainly everyone else in the Department, and I think across the Government as a whole, in terms of the burdens of meeting FOIA requests for information. In the year that I have been here, I have become fairly familiar with the burdens which the FBI has had to bear in that regard.

Senator PASTORE. I am affected a little bit by the inconsistency of all this. I know that the pressure to cut is going to be on the LEAA. There are a lot of people who feel that the LEAA is wasting money, but I don't agree with that.

There was an investigation made by some young lady. I understand she appeared before the Judiciary Committee. After all the testimony was in, that committee came out with a recommendation for more money for 1977 than was appropriated this year.

Here we are and the argument that is being made on the LEAA is that, while crime has not been cut down, the fact still remains that LEAA is doing a good job. Yet here you are with respect to the Federal Bureau of Investigation cutting out over 500 jobs. Why?

Judge Tyler. No, no, sir.
Senator PASTORE. Yes. You are eliminating 272 and 250 jobs.
Judge TYLER. No, no, no.

Senator PASTORE. You say no, no, no. Let me get the yes, yes, yes. All the House did, as I understand, is put back the jobs that you are cutting out. If I am wrong, correct me.

Judge Tyler. The House restored in the work force for field investigations 250 positions.

Senator PASTORE. No.
Mr. POMMERENING. Mr. Chairman, the House--
Judge TYLER. Wait a minute. I beg your pardon.
Senator PASTORE. That is right.

Judge TYLER. What they did was to come back and restore administratively uncontrollable overtime, which we support. They also came in with more money for FOIA-202 positions. So that what one could do, for example, is maybe to cut back on the FOIA positions and restore the corresponding number of investigative positions.

DEVELOPMENT OF BUDGET ALTERNATIVES

Senator PASTORE. Will your Department tell us exactly what you want us to do?

Judge TYLER. We certainly will. But you see the point. We are in this quandary. On the one hand, we want to respond to what we think is a wise move in terms of cutting expenses where we can, but at the same time we don't want to do something that cuts law enforcement to the point where it can't work.

Senator PASTORE. Yes, I will tell you frankly, my attitude has always been when it comes to fighting crime, if there is an element of doubt I always decided in putting in more money and getting more people out there to do the job. You can't suppress crime without people enforcing the law.

This committee has been very generous. As a matter of fact, we added $5 million last time for the FBI and it is being criticized in the Congress. It is being criticized throughout the Nation.

My own opinion is that they have done a wonderful job and, God help us if we didn't have them.

PROPOSAL TO RESTORE LEAA BLOCK GRANTS

Judge Tyler. You have been generous. My suggestions here are to see if we can do that job and still survive without recklessly spending a lot of money which doesn't have to be spent. We also hope to achieve some restoration for the LEAA block grant and discretionary funding, which I continue to think is of importance to the country as a whole.

It is in this spirit or this light that I am trying to make these suggestions. But we will do as you say, Mr. Chairman, and try to work with the staff and come up with something.

Senator PASTORE. All right.

Judge Tyler. Let me say, if I may, just a word about LEAA, although I know you will wish to address Mr. Velde, the Administrator. As you know, the budget request of the administration here for LEAA was in the neighborhood of $ 708 million. It has been reduced by the House by approximately $108 million to $600 million.

There was a recommendation made to earmark $40 million of this for the LEEP and $40 million for the juvenile justice programs authorized by the 1974 Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act.

Since the budget contained no new funds for LEEP and only $10 million for juvenile justice, the combined effect of the reduction in the House and the earmarks really is a reduction for other programs in the neighborhood of $178 million.

Senator PASTORE. So what are you asking for restoration? Judge TYLER. We are asking for a restoration of at least the $67 million and anything we can trim on other expenses-for example, the new positions proposed by the House. We think this is a minimum in fairness.

You see we are in this position, Mr. Chairman: we want to support the administration's total mark. That is why I am going through this rough arithmetic. We think that the House cut was too severe and that the $67 million ought to be restored, plus any savings we can work out on new positions.

IMPACT OF ALLOWANCE AND APPEAL ON LEAA

It is also requested that the highly restrictive earmarking language be modified to establish spending ceilings rather than required funding levels.

The last, of course, is being suggested because these actions would serve somewhat to mitigate or palliate the severe impact of the House reductions.

Senator PASTORE. Could I ask Mr. Velde a question at this point, Judge?

Judge TYLER. Surely.

Senator PASTORE. Let me ask you, Mr. Velde, if the $600 million stands, which was decided upon by the subcommittee of the House, what happens to LEAA?

Mr. Velde. Sir, very briefly what would happen is that there would not be funds either through our block grant accounts or our discretionary accounts to start any new initiatives or programs and many of the ongoing programs would have to be either cut back drastically or eliminated altogether.

Senator PASTORE. If you get the $67 million, what happens?

Mr. Velde. That would help out considerably. But still we are facing a substantial cut over funding levels of the current year.

Senator PASTORE. What have you got to say, Mr. Velde, with reference to the criticism that has been leveled at LEAA recently?

Mr. Velde. Sir, there has been one report actually issued. A second report or portions of a draft at least were carried in the press. I do have a formal response to both of these. I would be pleased to submit them for the record.

Senator PASTORE. I would like to have them for the record. (The documents follow:]

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