Members. Besides, there is something | had also read a speech of the noble in the past history of these Bills which is not calculated to inspire confidence. An Irish Grand Jury Bill has been promised, and generally introduced, in almost every Session of Parliament since I can recollect, but they have very seldom made much progress; and I cannot very much wonder that Irish Members should consider that the Bill is introduced very much as a matter of form, and is intended to share the fate of all its predecessors. Another part of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is also, I think, open to objection. I understood him to say that though there was only this legislation to be offered to Ireland this year the Government had it in contemplation, at some future time, to devote some part of the Irish Church surplus to the payment of the pensions of the Irish School Teachers. I do not think that is a very judicious proceeding on the part of the Government. If the Government has measures to propose, by all means let them bring them forward; but I hardly think it is fair to treat the Irish people in this way. To hold out these promises as bribes for good conduct on their part, and to tell the Irish Members that if they behave well they will, at some indefinite period, be indulged with another slice of the Irish Church surplus. That does not appear to me to be a dignified mode of treating the question, and I regret that the sop should have been held out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. At the same time, while I sympathize with the complaints of the Members from Ireland, it is quite impossible for me, for the reasons I have stated, to support the Resolution.

comment.

MR. MELDON said, he wished to make but one observation with reference to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary that night, and the one with which he favoured them at Dublin recently. Upon the good taste of the latter speech he did not intend to It had, however, made a great impression upon large numbers of the people of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman told them that the Government, while admitting the importance of the University Question, did not think it right and proper to introduce any on the subject, because it would be made a Party question. He ·]

measure

VOL. CCXLIII. [THIRD SERIES.

Lord who had just sat down (the Marquess of Hartington) at Liverpool, and it had given him intense satisfaction. That feeling he knew was shared by a great many people in Ireland, and it was due to the fact that the noble Lord declared he did not disapprove of the Government introducing a measure on this question of Irish Education, and that he, for one, would not offer any factious opposition to it, or oppose it in any Party spirit, if the measure were such as had been suggested. He read that speech with great satisfaction, and he hoped that he had interpreted its meaning fairly. If the Chief Secretary for Ireland had also read that speech, he (Mr. Meldon) did not understand how he could have made the announcement that he had done. He must say, however-and he said it with deep pain-that there was an impression abroad in Ireland that since the right hon. Gentleman had been appointed a policy of exasperation had been initiated and carried out, and that he was the adviser of it. His predecessor did not do much for them; but he showed his desire for conciliation, as far as his Party would let him do so. ["No, no!"] He was speaking his own opinion. But, on the other hand, it could not be denied that for some months past there had been a policy of exasperation tried in Ireland. It should be clearly understood, also, that they had not taken action in this matter without notice. They had not raised a debate on the principle of Land Reform, or of the establishment of a University; but they did say that it was the duty of the Government, after the speech of the noble Lord at Liverpool, to have made some proposal to the House on these two subjects.

MR. GRAY said, the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) opposed the Amendment because sufficient Notice of it had not been given, and because it was unusual to base an Amendment upon a mere verbal statement. But he would remind the House that his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Galway (Major Nolan) gave Notice of his Amendment immediately after it had been elicited from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government were not going to deal with the question of University Education. As to the second point; because the Government had

2 P

done far better if it had attempted to settle the question upon which the hearts of the Irish people were bent, instead of proposing a series of gagging Resolutions; but he, for one, was not afraid to face the issue, and they would soon see which would get the better of it.

MR. PARNELL said, if he spoke candidly he hoped it would not be thought he spoke unwisely, at any rate from his own point of view. It was now almost a matter of history with the Irish Party that concessions were not to be won from any English Government by a policy of conciliation. ginning of the Session, when a question of the utmost importance was occupying the attention of Parliament and the Empire, many of the people of Ireland desired that their Representatives should bring before the House this question of Irish Education, and other kindred subjects. That desire was over-ruled, for it was represented to them that such a course would excite exasperation, and that the feelings of Members would be so influenced by it that a settlement of the University Question would be postponed, or perhaps prevented altogether. Under these circumstances, the Irish Members forebore to press their grievances. He was one of those who thought that that time was a fitting time for them to explain their grievances, and by showing their own belief in them to impress the House with their reality. They were overborne, however, and when the attention of the Government was directed to the omission of all reference to Irish affairs, the Home Secre

taken the unusual course of not making | tion which had just been moved. He their statement of domestic policy in the thought the Government would have form of an Address from the Crown, they were to be debarred from their Constitutional right to move an Amendment. For his part, he thought the responsibility for this Amendment should be fairly put on the right shoulders, and those shoulders were not on his side of the House. His hon. Friend gave as early a Notice as was practicable, and, therefore, the fault that it was not earlier and more formally before the House was not his; and, in his opinion, his Party was justified in proceeding to a division. There might, of course, be a difference of opinion as to the wisdom of moving such an Amendment, with so many Irish Members absent; but now that it had been moved it would be puerile to withdraw it, and therefore he hoped it would be pressed to a division. As to the general question, he thought the Irish Party were punished in a way that they deserved for their conduct at the opening of the Session. The Irish Party was a small one, and it could only make itself respected, and its influence felt, by strict organization. They appeared, on the contrary, to be utterly disorganized. The Government and the Government organs were now studiously formulating the idea that the Irish Party, which at one time was formidable, was now broken up, and no longer formidable to anybody. The Government assumed that statement to be true, and treated Irish Members according to the strength which they now imagined them to possess. He and his Friends would take that lesson to heart. They would remember the contemptuous manner in which the Irish nation had been treated, and Her Majesty's Go-tary held out hopes that there might be vernment would by-and-bye find that some measures in store for Ireland. His the Irish Party was not so weak and hopes were not unduly excited; but powerless as they thought. They were some hon. Members did think that at promised a Grand Jury Bill, which the last there was some hope of an English majority of the Irish Members had Government being honest, and doing already rejected, for they were told that justice to Ireland. But again the stern the measure was not materially changed lesson had been taught them; again from that of last year, and they were they had believed in the honour and also to be treated to a series of Resolu-justice of an English Government, and tions calculated to curtail the rights and powers of minorities. That was the Ministerial programme as regarded Ire

land.

It would create considerable exasperation in that country, and he was certain the Irish Members were only expressing that feeling in the Resolu

again they, once more, found themselves deceived. ["Order!"] He said, in beginning, that he meant to be candid, and he hoped his candour would not injure any great principle or any great cause. If the Government had deliberately chosen to play into his hands,

and to advance the designs that they | He did not propose to discuss the matter had chosen from time to time to attri- now; but the Government would be bute to him, they could not have chosen misleading the House and the country, a better way. He must not be told that as they had often done before, and the articles in The Times were not in- would be misleading the people of India spired, and were not put out as feelers also, if they were to say that they ever to ascertain how far the Government expected this money to be repaid. They might go. It had now come to this had much better propose to give the that the Irish Representatives must money to India at once, for he knew it make up their minds how they were would be useless to expect that it would going to deal with Irish questions, and ever be repaid. how they were going to show that great Assembly that they felt the importance of these questions from the bottom of their hearts. When they had done that, and not till then, the first step would have been taken in the settlement of these questions.

MAJOR O'GORMAN said, he was sincerely glad at everything that had taken place that night. He was delighted beyond anything he could express that the Government had treated these great Irish questions in the way they had done. Nothing more rejoiced his heart than to find that the English Government were still doing as they had done for centuries, and still continued to trample on the Irish people. Nothing, also, more rejoiced his heart than to feel for the Government-as he was sure every Irishman should, and did feel-the utmost hatred and contempt.

Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 72; Noes 25 Majority 47.-(Div. List, No. 3.) Main Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.”

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Committee deferred till To-morrow.

BANKERS' BOOKS (EVIDENCE) BILL. (Sir John Lubbock, Mr. Herschell, Sir Charles Mills, Mr. Rodwell.)

[BILL 65.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read.

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to amend and extend an Act passed a few Sessions ago, which had been found to work well as far as it went. By that measure, solicitors were allowed to use copies of bankers' books in certain cases instead of the books themselves. In the present measure, it was proposed to allow bankers to send certified copies instead of the actual books, unless the bank was itself interested, or a Judge one in considered that the case was which the books themselves should be produced. Of course, this would be a convenience to bankers; but bankers only required their books for the convenience of their customers, and if the books were taken away it was really the public who were the sufferers. Again, it saved time and trouble in Court to have a handy account which could be passed easily about, instead of a ponderous folio. He believed, therefore, that the Bill would be found to be for the general convenience. The hon. Baronet concluded by moving the second reading.

MR. DILLWYN said, before the Speaker left the Chair, he thought they ought to have some further information on the Corrupt Practices Bill. It was an important measure, which had been before the House a great many years, and in view of the coming Election it should certainly be dealt with this year. The Government had distinctly pledged themselves to bring forward the Bill early in the Session. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Notice of the question has not been given.] Then he would bring the matter forward again on Monday. There was one other matter. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir He understood that the Chancellor of JOHN HOLKER) said, he approved of the the Exchequer was about to propose a principle of this Bill, and as the former loan of £2,000,000 to the Indian Go-Act had not been found to work well he vernment without interest for two years. thought the best way was, as proposed,

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."(Sir John Lubbock.)

to repeal it, and substitute another. | his hon. Friend thought the matter was Generally speaking, bankers and bankers' so important as to demand the expenclerks were called to prove the receipt diture of public funds on public instituand payment of certain sums of money, tions, he went further than the Bill now and as they could only do so by referring proposed. He understood that his hon. to their books it seemed to him very Friend entertained a strong dislike to reasonable that they should be saved private lunatic asylums, and thought the inconvenience of having their books that this Bill would establish a number brought into Court. There was an of institutions of a somewhat analogous omission in the Bill, however, which re- character. In his opinion, there was not quired rectification. There was no pro- the slightest analogy between the two. vision for giving notice to the other side A lunatic was committed to an asylum that a party intended to avail himself of on the certificate of two medical men. the Act, and that was only fair, in order He was sent there for an indefinite that the other side might, if they chose, period, and while there any complaint call the witness themselves. There was made by him was treated as the raving an indication in the 8th clause that some of a lunatic, and any witnesses he might such proposal was intended, and if the bring would be considered in the same hon. Baronet approved the suggestion way. The principle of the Bill was enthe alteration could easily be made in tirely different to this. A person could Committee. be liberated by order of the Inspector appointed under the Bill, or by order of any County Court, and at the very worst he was bound to be liberated at the end of 12 months. Then, if he felt himself aggrieved, the patient would be entitled to an action for damages. He thought hishon. Friend was, therefore, altogether mistaking in imagining that there was any real analogy between the institutions suggested in his Bill and private lunatic asylums. The hon. Member concluded by moving the second reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

HABITUAL DRUNKARDS BILL.

(Dr. Cameron, Mr. Clare Read, Mr. Ashley, Sir Henry Jackson, Mr. Edward Jenkins, Mr. William Holms, Mr. O'Shaughnessy.)

[BILL 47.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read.

DR. CAMERON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that as first introduced it would be remembered that it was of a much wider scope; but it had afterwards been decided to cut it down, and limit its operation to the persons who were prepared voluntarily to submit themselves to its provisions. It had been proved to the Committee on the subject that on this basis a vast number of cases could be treated, and a great deal of good might

result. In that modified form he had last year secured for the Bill the support of the House on the second reading, and in the course of the debate some 20 Members took part, every single speech being in support of the Bill in its present shape, and the second reading of the Bill being passed nem. con. On the present occasion, his hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) had given Notice of his intention to oppose the Bill. He understood that he would not object to the Bill if it applied to public institutions only. If

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Dr. Cameron.)

MR. DILLWYN: The only reason I have for objecting to the Bill is that it appears to contemplate a violation of the liberty of the subject.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at half after
Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, 14th February, 1879.

MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE Intemper. ance, appointed and nominated,

AFGHANISTAN-THE RUSSIAN MIS

SION AT CABUL.
OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.

EARL GRANVILLE: I am afraid the noble Marquess only entered the House as I was finishing my Question. It is, whether there has been any result to the communications with Russia on the subject of Afghanistan; and, if so, whether he has any objection to communicate it to Parliament? If the noble Marquess thinks there is any objection, I am the last person to press him for an

answer.

sult of those communications was the withdrawal of the Mission from Cabul. The nature of those communications will be explained by the Papers, which, I hope, will be in the hands of the noble Earl in a day or two.

THE VOLUNTEER FORCE FINANCE

AND ORGANIZATION-REPORT OF
THE COMMITTEE,

OBSERVATIONS.

EARL GRANVILLE: Your Lordships must have thought me, during the observations with which I troubled you last night, of a somewhat inquiring turn of mind. I asked many Questions of Her Majesty's Government, none of which-as sometimes happens to mewere answered. I remember that Lord THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Lansdowne (the third Marquess) was There were some communications with much amused by an Irish Peer, after Russia just about the time Parliament asking a witness a question in a Com-separated for the short Recess. The remittee, telling him that he asked the question because he knew what the answer would be. I have no idea how some of the Questions which I asked yesterday might be answered, and probably Her Majesty's Government are in the same predicament; but there is one Question which related to a matter of fact, which I take the liberty to repeat. Your Lordships will remember that in the despatch of the Secretary of State for India describing the policy of the war in Afghanistan the objects were VISCOUNT BURY: My Lords, I have stated to be that that country should be the honour of laying on the Table the "strong, friendly, and independent." Report of the Committee appointed some Yesterday, the First Lord of the Treasury time ago by my noble Friend (Viscount described the results of the war, and he Cranbrook), when he was Secretary of interrupted me while I was speaking- State for War; and it is thought desiras he had a perfect right to do-and able that in doing so I should, on the part said he had not used the words "strong" of Her Majesty's Government, give some and "friendly"-which I admit it short explanation of the circumstances would have been impossible for him to which led to the appointment of the Comsay-but "independent" and "self-mittee, the course of its procedure, the governed." I asked for further information as to how this desirable end was to be obtained, and also asked whether there had been any communications with the Russian Government on the subject; and, if so, whether with any result, and if that result could be communicated to Parliament without inconvenience to the Public Service? It will not be thought unreasonable if I now repeat the Question.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: There are some communications which are now in the hands of the printer; but which, I hope, will be in your Lordships' hands before long. I am afraid I did not hear all the Questions which the noble Earl put; but perhaps he had better wait before discussing the question of communications with Russia on the subject until the Papers have been produced.

recommendations they have made, and also the course Her Majesty's Government are prepared to take with regard to those recommendations. I make no apology for troubling your Lordships with these details, because anything which relates to the Volunteer Force of Great Britain is of enormous importance to the country, and of great interest not only to many Members of this House, but to a large body of our countrymen. The Volunteer Force has very much changed its character in the last 20 years, during which it has flourished. Its history, briefly-although I hardly need remind your Lordships of it-is that in 1859, under circumstances which we all remember, the Volunteer Force was established by the authority of the Lords Lieutenant of the counties under the old Act of 1804. In 1862, two or three years after, a Royal Commission