HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, 6th December, 1878. LORD CHANCELLOR - The Lord Pre If legislation for England or Scotland had been mentioned in the Speech, while no notice was given to Ireland, then the latter country might have thought itself neglected. But at the beginning of an Autumn Session, called for a specific purpose, he thought it sufficient in the Queen's Speech only to state generally that measures would be laid before Par-sident acquainted the House that Her liament in the ensuing Session. There was the precedent of 1854, in the case of the Crimean War, for the course which had been followed in the present instance, and he thought in the matter of precedents they were pretty evenly balanced. When Irish Members spoke of that as a grievance, he hoped they would remember that the last measure which the Government had passed for Ireland was one of peace, goodwill, and, he believed, of justice. That being the last message of the Government to Ireland, he hoped that they would acknowledge, and do the Government the justice of believing, that they might have other measures to introduce for that country equally beneficial. A general statement would be made to Parliament, immediately after it re-assembled, of the measures which the Government in-tary of State for India :tended to bring forward; and when their list of measures was produced the Irish Members might rely upon it that their country would not be overlooked. Majesty had been pleased to create Chancellor of Great Britain, a Viscount Hugh MacCalmont Lord Cairns, Lord and Earl of the United Kingdom, by the style and title of Viscount Garmoyle in the County of Antrim, and Earl Cairns; and his Lordship, having retired to robe, was introduced in the usual manner. AFGHANISTAN-THE WAR. NOTICE OF AMENDMENT. THE EARL OF CORK: My Lords, I beg to give Notice, on behalf of my noble Friend (Viscount Halifax), that on Monday next he will move the following Amendment to the Motion to be proposed by the noble Viscount the Secre "That, while this House whilst ready to con sent to providing the means necessary for bringing the war in which we are unhappily engaged to a safe and honourable conclusion, regrets the conduct pursued by the Government which has unnecessarily engaged this country in the con MR. O'CLERY explained that his use of the expression had been misunder-test." stood. What he meant to infer was that it was against Russia that they had to defend themselves in the East, rather than Afghanistan. Main Question put, and agreed to. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: May I ask my noble Friend whether the words he has just read are intended as an addition to, or a substitution of, the Motion of my noble Friend the Secretary of State? THE EARL OF CORK: A substitution. Committee appointed, "to draw up an Address to be presented to Her Majesty upon the said Resolution: ”—Viscount CASTLEREAGH, Mr. AFRICA-CAPE FRONTIER MOUNTED HALL, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, House adjourned at half after POLICE. MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS. LORD HOUGHTON said, that complaints had reached this country from some young men of good family who, thinking that they were about to join a body of a civilian character, had enlisted in the Cape Frontier Mounted Police, but subsequently found that they were transferred to a military corps. He would therefore move for any Correspondence between the Government and the civil or military Authorities at the Cape of Good Hope respecting the change of the body of Cape Frontier Mounted Police into Cape Mounted Rifles. Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for any correspondence between the Government and the civil or military Authorities at the Cape of Good Hope respecting the change of the body of Cape Frontier Mounted Police into Cape Mounted Rifles.— (The Lord Houghton.) EARL CADOGAN said, that complaints of a similar nature to those stated by the noble Lord had reached the Colonial Office. The first of those complaints reached them on the 6th of November, and was followed by others. On the 14th, and again on the 21st of that month, despatches were addressed to Sir Bartle Frere requesting explanation of the matter. It was impossible for the Government to receive an answer before the middle or end of January, and therefore he hoped the noble Lord would not press his Motion for Papers on the present occasion, and he should be ready to give him an undertaking that as soon as the required answer and explanation had been received the Papers should be produced. Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn. House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, 6th December, 1878. MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS-Resolutions in Committee-Ordered-First Reading-Permissive Prohibitory Liquor* [6]; Burial Law Amendment [10]; Money Laws (Ireland)* [12]; Consecration of Churchyards Act (1867) Amendment [13]; Licensing Boards (Scotland) [15]; Clerical Disabilities* [18]; Spirits in Bond* [19]; Joint Stock Banks (Accounts) [23]; Interments in Churchyards [24]; Licensing Laws Amendment [25]; Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) [32]; Church of Scotland [39]; Burials* [42] Ordered-First Reading- Married Women's Property (Scotland) [1]; Medical Act (1858) Amendment [2]; Hypothec Abolition (Scotland) * [3]; Convention (Ireland) Act Re * * * * * * * peal [4]; Volunteer Corps (Ireland) * [5]; Elective County Boards (Ireland)* [7]; Waste Lands Reclamation (Ireland) [8]; Municipal Corporations (Property Qualification Abolition) [9]; Hours of Polling (Boroughs)* [11]; Rating of Towns (Ireland) [14]; Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Amendment [16]; Colonial Marriages [17]; Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday [20]; Employers and Workmen Act, 1875 (Extension to Seamen) [21]; Disqualification by Medical Relief [22]; Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) [26]; Relief of Insane Poor* [27]; Cruelty to Animals [28]; Voters Registra tion (Ireland) [29]; Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister [30]; Artizans' Dwellings Act (1868) Extension [31]; Public Health Act (1875) Amendment [33]; Contagious Diseases Acts Repeal* [34]; Poor Law Guardians (Election by Ballot) (Ireland) [35]; Duration of Parliament [36]; Ulster Tenant Right* [37]; Inhabited House Duty and Income Tax [38]; County Courts* [40]; Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act (1870) Amendment [41]; Libel Law Amendment [43]; Poor Law Amendment Act (1876) Amendment * [44]; Bills of Sale (Ireland) [45]; County Infirmaries_(Ireland) [46]; Habitual Drunkards [47]; Racecourses (Metropolis) * [48]. * * * AFGHANISTAN - AMENDMENTS ON THE ADDRESS. MR. WHITBREAD: I beg to give Notice that it is my intention to call attention to the Papers on Afghanistan, and to move "That this House disapproves the conduct of Her Majesty's Government which has resulted in the War with Afghanistan." With regard to the day on which I can bring that forward, I am, of course, very much in the hands of the Government. Having given Notice of a Motion which directly challenges the conduct of Her Majesty's Government, I am, of course, anxious to bring it forward at the earliest opportunity; and I presume that Her Majesty's Government - and, indeed, both sides of the House-would desire, as is usual, that not a day should be lost in bringing it forward. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman what day he will give me for the Motion? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Undoubtedly, Sir, under ordinary circumstances it would be the desire of the Government to give the very earliest day for a Motion that is in the nature of a Vote of Censure upon the Government, a Motion brought forward by an hon. Member of the standing of the hon. Member for Bedford, and with, as I have some reason to suppose, the general approval of the leading Members of the Party sitting opposite to me; but I would remind the House and the hon. Gentleman that on this occasion Parliament has been called together for the special purpose of discharging a Constitutional and statutory obligation entered into by the Government; and that in order to fulfil that obligation it will be necessary for us immediately to submit to Parliament a Vote giving the required consent of both Houses of Parliament to the course which is proposed to be taken. That being so, it would be impossible for us to set aside proceeding with the Motion of which Notice has been given by my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India. It was, of course, open to the hon. Member for Bedford or for his Friends to have brought forward a Motion such as that of which he has now given Notice yesterday upon the Address; or it would be open for him to bring forward his Motion as an Amendment to the proposal of my hon. Friend to which I have just referred. It is not for me, of course, to say what would be the most convenient or proper course for the hon. Member to take; but all I can say is, that if the question of the hon. Gentleman points to our giving up Monday and putting off the Resolution which we have already given Notice of, in order to enable his Resolution to be brought forward, I think it would be impossible for us to comply. MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to give Notice that on the Resolution of the hon. Member for Bedford I will move the following addition : "And this House regrets that, in the present instance, the consent of the Nation, through its representatives, was not obtained before War was declared; and that the Government withheld from publication, until after the Declaration of War, the Papers which would have enabled a correct opinion to be formed as to its justice and necessity.” THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I desire to make an appeal to the Government to re-consider the decision which has just been announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but I am under the impression that it would be irregular for any discussion to take place at this stage of the proceedings. It would possibly be more in Order if I were to postpone any appeal I have to make until after the Notices of Motions and Questions have been put. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We shall have to move that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday. SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: It becomes my duty now to move that the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday. That the House, at its rising, do adMotion made, and Question proposed, journ till Monday next."-(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.) THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I intended, if I had been enabled, to have made an appeal to the Government, before the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the determination of the Government, to take into consideration the request made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford. My hon. Friend has given Notice of a Resolution which is undoubtedly a Resolution of Censureor, at all events, of Want of Confidence in the Government. From the observations that I made yesterday I think it will be easily understood that I and those who act with me are prepared to support that Motion. Well, Sir, under these circumstances, I wish, as I have said, to appeal to the Government to re-consider their intention of moving on Monday the Resolution of which they have given Notice, and to give precedence to that of my hon. Friend. It occurs to me that that would be the most convenient course for two reasons. In the first place, as, I think, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has admitted, the Government would, under ordinary circumstances, be anxious to give the earliest possible opportunity for a vote involving the question of the confidence of the House in the Government. But, in the next place, there are peculiar circumstances which seem to me to render this course even more desirable. What will take place on Monday? On Monday the Under Secretary of State for India will make a statement which will not be confined to the financial question, but will open the whole case of the Government in reference to the proceedings in Afghanistan. The hon. Member will be followed by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), who has 179 Afghanistan-Amendments {COMMONS} given Notice of a Resolution which | Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exraises the question whether the cost of chequer stated that it was in the option the war shall be borne by the Revenues of Gentlemen on this side of the House of this country or by those of India. to raise the general question on the Now, the course taken by my hon. Address to Her Majesty, and that, having Friend precludes the possibility, even if it voluntarily foregone that opportunity, had been otherwise desirable, of my hon. there still remained to them the question Friend the Member for Bedford moving of an Amendment to the Motion of my his Resolution as an Amendment to the hon. Friend opposite, who represents Resolution which will be moved by the Indian Department. But I think, But Sir, it escaped the recollection of my the Under Secretary of State. I have ascertained that my hon. right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Friend the Member for Hackney is Exchequer that we have not yet done not disposed, even if that were thought with the Address to Her Majesty, and desirable, to give way in order that my that it is in the option of any person hon. Friend the Member for Bedford's either to move an Amendment on the Resolution might come on. I cannot Report of the Address, or, if it is thought complain of the decision at which my fit, to move the postponement of the hon. Friend the Member for Hackney consideration of the Address until Monhas arrived, because I believe it will be day, when it would of necessity be the only opportunity which he will have taken as the first Business, and when, in his power of raising the very import- therefore, the Opposition in this House ant question which he wishes to submit would be enabled to give effect to their to the House. What will be the result? view, which I understand to be, as exWe shall have had a general statement pressed by my hon. Friend the Member of the policy of the Government from the for Bedford and my noble Friend, that Government Bench; we shall then be the general question of the conduct of invited by the hon Member for Hackney the Government, and of their policy, to consider a most important but still a ought to be discussed and disposed of subsidiary point; and the debate which before we come to consider the subaltern is commenced and conducted under these and collateral, although a most imcircumstances cannot possibly be a very portant, question, which is wholly dissatisfactory one. We shall have on one tinct from that general question. I side speeches made directed to the whole frankly own I do not know why Her policy of the Government; and, on the Majesty's Government object to the proother hand, we shall have speeches made posal that has been made by my noble directed to that subsidiary point raised Friend. I cannot conceive what disadby the hon. Member. Now, it strikes vantage they are to undergo if they me it would be far more logical and con- should think fit to give way to it. I venient if we should decide, in the first would also point out that the two quesinstance, on the issue raised by my hon. tions not only are not the same in subjectFriend the Member for Bedford as to matter, but are not the same in any the policy, or want of policy, of the pro-degree as regards the opinions that hon. Having Gentlemen might be disposed to enterceedings which have led to war. disposed of that question, we could then tain. It is perfectly possible that there consider on a subsequent occasion the may be those on this side of the House issue raised by the hon. Member for who object to the policy of Her Majesty's Hackney as to the source from which Government, but, notwithstanding, who the cost should be defrayed. That cer- might be disposed to support the Motion tainly seems to me to be by far the most of my hon. Friend opposite on the part convenient course; and I cannot help of the Government; and, vice versâ, it is thinking that if the Government will perfectly possible that there may be consider it they will agree with that those on that side of the House, or view, and they may possibly be dis- elsewhere, who may be prepared to posed to allow precedence to my hon. give a strong support to the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and Friend the Member for Bedford. yet who may think that, under all the circumstances of the case, it is not desirable that the cost of these hostilities should be imposed upon the burdened MR. GLADSTONE: I rise to point out that the Parliamentary case does not appear to me to rest exactly as it was described by the Chancellor of the finances of India. I would entreat Her | Amendment, should think proper to Majesty's Government to consider that avail himself of his privilege to bring point, which appears to me to be unde- forward his Motion on Tuesday, what, niable. In truth, as I view the matter then, will be the position of the House? -although I can understand it arises That we shall begin on Monday the without the slightest intention to perplex debate on the question of Indian finance the Business of the House-the proposal with a considerable admixture of the of the Government that we should take other subject; that my hon. Friend, I the discussion on the Motion and Amend- apprehend, will not give way on Tuesday; ment now before the House would come and his debate will then commence and to nothing more nor less than this be continued during Tuesday night. But that, first of all, we should be compelled then the Government will retort upon to debate together, and in hotch-potch, my hon. Friend the disadvantage which so to speak, two questions which are it has been in his power to inflict upon both of very great importance, even if them, and on Thursday we should renot of equal importance, and which are sume the debate, and so go on on the perfectly distinct from one another; and Motion about Indian finance. I hope I then that, having so discussed these two have not appeared to put this question questions together, we should go to a in a hostile point of view; I have only division, in which it would be absolutely argued it in the interests of the general impossible for anyone to know whether convenience, and I hope the suggestion he was voting on the one side or the of my noble Friend will be entertained. other. Now, Sir, that is a state of THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEthings in which it cannot be acceptable QUER: I must confess, after listening to or desirable to Her Majesty's Govern- the speech which has just been delivered, ment that the Business of the House I feel very much like the picture that was should stand. I apprehend no one is exhibited to us in a comic periodical desirous to interfere with the progress the other day, of " John Bull in a Fog." of the Report of the Address to-night. After the number of suggestions made If we are driven to the alternative be- by my right hon. Friend as to the diftween making an attempt to discuss the ferent modes in which those who oppose policy of the Government upon the Her Majesty's Government may attack Report of the Address, where the dis- us, I feel the situation is perfectly becussion would undoubtedly be legitimate wildering. I should have thought that and in place, and discussing upon another there was but one possible mode in occasion when it would not be legitimate which the Motion could be brought fornor in place, and where it would only ward, and that that mode depended throw the Business of the House into upon the formal decision of the Governconfusion, I know not what position ment; but after hearing the wealth of my noble Friend might take; but I see suggestions made by my right hon. nothing but inconvenience to the pro- Friend the Member for Greenwich, and ceedings of the House in consequence. considering how many arrangements Then, also, I think Her Majesty's might be made by Gentlemen opposite Government may do well to recollect-who have only got to arrange amongst that they are not now, as at the end of the Session, masters of all the days of the week. If it is insisted that the debate on Monday shall be the debate on the Motion of my hon. Friend opposite, and also that that Motion shall be the only occasion given us for considering the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford, the consequence will be that the debate will spread over several nights, and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford would, I apprehend, decline to move his Motion as an Amendment. But suppose my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford, declining to move his Motion as an themselves in which particular way they would like it discussed-I do not think the case is strengthened by the speech which has been made to us. But what I wish to point out is this-we have taken the unusual course of advising Her Majesty to summon Parliament at this inconvenient season for a particular object, to fulfil the statutory obligation which is laid upon us to obtain the consent of both Houses of Parliament to the application of the Indian Revenues to certain military operations. I wish to point out, in passing, that that is a very different thing from saying we are asking Parliament now to agree to charge |