HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 27th February, 1879. MINUTES.]-SESSIONAL COMMITTEES-Standing Orders Committee on Private Bills, Committee of Selection on Opposed Private Bills, Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated. a hope that the Government would keep themselves clear of all the nonsense of quarantine. He fully admitted that it was quite competent for a medical gentleman to express any opinion he pleased on such a subject; but he ventured to think that anyone connected with a Government Department was bound to observe great caution, and to use the most guarded language in dealing with such a subject. No doubt, his object was to discountenance anything like a panic; but, at the same time, he was bound to attach due importance to it. He (the THE PLAGUE IN RUSSIA-SANITARY Earl of Carnarvon) now repeated what THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in asking a Question of his noble Friend the Lord President, of which he had given him private Notice, said, that at the commencement of the Session he had, as their Lordships would remember, put a Question to his noble Friend with respect to the plague in Russia, and received a reply stating what precautions had been adopted by the Government on the subject. That morning he had read a startling announcement in the papers, to the effect that the plague was no longer confined to the south-eastern districts of Russia, but, by a sudden bound, had made its way to St. Petersburg, and that 48 persons who were supposed to have been in contact with a person seized by it had been interned. It would be wrong to say anything on the subject which would have a tendency to create any agitation in the public mind; but the matter was one of a very serious character. The plague was of a deadly description, and there was a great difference between its existence in the province of Astrachan and its making its appearance in a capital, which one might say was within a few hours' journey of this country. He was concerned to read in the papers to-day that in a debate which took place upon this question in a learned Society yesterday-the Epidemiological | Society-in the course of which a great deal of valuable information was given, and in which certainly nothing was said which could create a panic, a gentleman connected with a Government Department seemed to attach so little importance to the absence or presence of the disease in England that, speaking upon he had said upon a former occasion-that he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would take every precaution that lay in their power. He was sure, from what his noble Friend had said, that he considered it his duty to adopt every possible precaution. In the discussion which took place last night among the medical authorities at the learned Society to which he had referred, it was pointed out that our sanitary code was an excellent one, but that it had not as yet been brought into practical operation. Of course, it was for his noble Friend to consider whether it was possible to do So. If this newspaper report was true, the danger was very close at hand. Upon one point all authorities seemed to be agreed, and that was that distress, poverty, and want of food were conditions that were very favourable to the existence of the plague; and, unfortunately, these conditions existed at the present time to a higher degree than had been experienced for a very long time. He was sure that while his noble Friend would not give any undue importance to any rumours on the subject he would regard the subject as one deserving the attention of the Government; and therefore he hoped he would take every precaution that seemed desirable to prevent the introduction of the plague into this country. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in reply, said, that no official confirmation of the report which had appeared in the newspapers of the appearance of the plague at St. Petersburg had been received by Her Majesty's Government-in fact, he had received no information on the subject beyond what his noble Friend possessed. As to the speech to which his noble Friend FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND). QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. as having been made by a gentleman | left on the 4th instant, and the substance connected with a Government Depart- of her despatches was forwarded by telement at a meeting of the Epidemological gram from Madeira on Saturday last, the Society, he hoped he should not be re- vessel itself might be expected to arrive garded as wanting in courtesy if he this evening. Another steamer left the declined to endorse all the opinions of Cape on the 11th, and the Government that gentleman-supposing him to have hoped to receive telegrams forwarded been correctly reported. From the by her from Madeira on Saturday statement of his noble Friend, that next. gentleman was reported, in the first place, to have said that he would not object to one or two cases of plague occurring here in order that they might be scientifically considered. If he had been correctly reported then, in his (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon's) humble opinion, he had much better not have said it at any rate, he thought he would not find many persons to agree with him. His next statement was, that he hoped the Government would keep clear of the nonsense of quarantine. To that he could only say that quarantine in certain cases was part of the law of this country; and so long as it remained so, and he continued to fill the office of President of the Privy Council, he would see that the provisions of the law with respect to quarantine were effectually carried out. Scarcely a day passed without the subject of the plague coming before him in some way or other; and he could assure his noble Friend that the Government had been adopting, and would continue to adopt, all due precautions. He was in constant communication with the officers of Customs, and he was of opinion that the powers already possessed by the Privy Council were sufficiently strong. SOUTH AFRICA-THE ZULU WAR DESPATCHES.-QUESTION. EARL GRANVILLE asked, Whether Her Majesty's Government had received any further information from South Africa? EARL CADOGAN, in reply, said, that the Government had received no despatches from the seat of war by the Asiatic, the steamer which arrived on Wednesday night; but that she did bring Government despatches from the Cape. It must be remembered that the Asiatic left the Cape only two days after the steamer which brought the first news of the disaster, and had been 27 days on her voyage to this country. Another steamer VOL. CCXLIII. [THIRD SERIES. VISCOUNT MIDLETON asked the Lord President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, during the present Session, a Bill for the better management of Fairs and Markets in Ireland? The noble Viscount said, that of late years there had been a considerable increase in the practice of holding fairs and markets in small towns in the South and West of Ireland. Those fairs at present created a great deal of inconvenience; and if they were properly regulated, it would involve a certain expense in making proper provision for their management. the want of proper accommodation was, that the fairs and markets were held in the high roads or the main streets of the small towns, and that practice caused great inconvenience to the community in general. Some attempts had been made in both Houses of Parliament to legislate upon the subject, but nothing had been done. He hoped that some attempt would be made this year to deal with this question, which was of more importance than their Lordships might, perhaps, think. The result of THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON said, he could corroborate the statement of his noble Friend, that attempts had been made in both Houses of Parliament to deal with this subject. In the year 1854, in the year 1857, in the year 1861, in the year 1862, and in the year 1867, Bills were introduced either into this or the other House of Parliament for the purpose of dealing with that question; and the Bill of 1857, and that of 1861, went before a Select Committee. Moreover, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the subject in 1852, and that Commission made its Report in 1854. The only successful attempt 3 N to deal with the subject was by a very small Bill, which became law in 1868, enabling the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to alter the legal times and days for the holding of fairs and markets. The difficulties in legislating on this subject were great, owing to the private interests which were affected by it, and that was, no doubt, the reason why, up to the present time, there had been no legislation upon it. With the amount of Business that Her Majesty's Government had in hand, it was not intended -at all events, at present--to bring in a measure in either House of Parliament for dealing with this subject. L. Colville of Culross. L. Skelmersdale. FRENCH LAW OF BANKRUPTCY-THE SIR GEORGE BOWYER asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, before further progress is made with the Bankruptcy Bill, the Government will obtain and lay before Parliament a statement of the French Law of Bankruptcy, and the were appointed, with the Chairman of Commit- way in which it is administered in that tees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill. OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIA country? MR. ASSHETON CROSS: I have consulted the Lord Chancellor upon this subject, and I find that it will be impossible to delay the progress of the Government Bankruptcy Bill in its early stages whilst the information asked for MENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN is being obtained; but if the hon. and USHER OF THE BLACK ROD. learned Baronet will move for it, I will Select Committee appointed: The Lords fol- do my best to obtain such information lowing were named of the Committee: as he wants. ARMY-MILITIA FINES.-QUESTION. COLONEL NAGHTEN asked the Secretary of State for War, When it is his intention to carry out his promise of last Session that the fines for drunkenness stopped from militiamen should be credited to the stock purse or contingent fund of all militia regiments? COLONEL STANLEY, in reply, said, that the Financial Secretary had had his attention directed to the subject, and before the next training he would issue an Order for appropriating the fines in the manner promised last Session. TURKEY-LOANS.-QUESTION. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If Her Majesty's Government have yet decided whether, by appointing Commissioners to receive certain revenues or otherwise, they propose to do anything to assist the Turkish Government to raise new loans; and, if so, whether anything has been arranged regarding the precedence of Russian and Roumanian claims for war indemnity, so as to avoid future complications on that score? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The question is one upon which Her Majesty's Government and the French Government have been consulting, and it is still under consideration. travention of the Night Poaching Act, and pleaded guilty." No option was, therefore, left to the Sheriff Substitute except to pronounce sentence of incarceration, with hard labour. I may state, however, that the Home Secretary, having considered the whole facts of the case, has directed that Mr. Barr should be liberated. I do not know whether it is intended in the new Criminal Code to make any alteration in the punishment for such offences; but I may remind the hon. Member that it is not proposed to extend the provisions of that Code to Scotland. SOUTH AFRICA-THE DESPATCHES. QUESTION. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, with reference to the Despatch from Sir Bartle Frere, dated Dec. 10th (II. p. 182), in which he says— said in previous Despatches on the subject of the Military necessity for the reinforcements asked for; but I would venture to add a few remarks on the observations in your Despatch, that all the information that has hitherto "I can add little to what has been already reached Her Majesty's Government with respect to the position of affairs in Zululand appears to them to justify a confident hope that, by the exercise of prudence, and by meeting the Zulus in a spirit of forbearance and reasonable compromise, it will be possible to avert the very serious evil of a war with Cetywayo.' am, of course, not aware what information may I CRIMINAL LAW (SCOTLAND)-CASE OF have reached Her Majesty's Government on MR. BARR.-QUESTION. MR. J. W. BARCLAY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Barr, a respectable farmer occupying 150 acres in Renfrewshire, who on Wednesday 19th February last was sentenced by Sheriff Cowan at Paisley to fourteen days' imprisonment with hard labour, without option of a fine, for killing a rabbit on land immediately adjoining his own farm; whether he will remit the sentence; and, whether it is proposed in the new Criminal Code to modify the Law so as to prevent the infliction of such sentences? THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. WATSON): The circumstances of the case are not quite as they appear in the terms of the Question. Mr. Barr was charged before the Sheriff Substitute with a con me. this subject other than what has passed through But I confess that, looking back at the information I have had the honour to submit to Her Majesty's Government for the past 12 months, I can find little ground for any such hope of avoiding a war with Cetywayo;" whether he received this Despatch on Jan. 15th; whether he gave any other answer to this Despatch than what is contained in his Despatch of Jan. 23rd "It has, of course, been impossible for Her Majesty's Government as yet to examine the whole of the case as it is now placed before them;" and, whether he will lay upon the Table "the general means of information" which outweighed the "official communications" before the latter had been examined by Her Majesty's Government? SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: The despatch from Sir Bartle Frere, dated December 10, was received by me on the date stated in the Papers that have been laid before the House; I think it was the 15th of January. It was answered, with other despatches from Sir Bartle Frere, generally, in my despatch of January 23, and in that whole despatch, not in the particular portion of a sentence quoted by the noble Lord in his Question. I do not quite understand the last portion of the Question; but I gather, from the words which he appears to quote in it, that it has reference to my despatch of October 17. That despatch, of course, refers to the means of information which were in the possession of the Government at that date, and not to despatches since received. So far as I know, everything that can be laid before the House in connection with that subject is already in the hands of hon. Members. AD CRIMINAL LAW PUNISHMENT MISSION OF THE PRESS.-QUESTIONS. MR. P. A. TAYLOR asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is true, as recently stated in the "Pall Mall Gazette," that he has ordered the exclusion of the representatives of the Press from witnessing the flogging of criminals; and, if so, if he will state to the House what other provision he has made for ensuring to the public the advantage of whatever deterring character there may be in such punishments? MR. PAGET said, that perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would, at the same time, answer the following Question-If his attention has been drawn to statements which appeared in the evening papers of the 25th instant, professing to give minute details of the execution of Peace; and, whether it is possible for him to prevent the attendance of reporters at executions, and thus to prevent the publication of details of a revolting character? MR. ASSHETON CROSS: My attention has been called to the statements which appeared in the evening papers of the 25th instant, professing to give minute details of the execution of the unfortunate man Peace; and, having seen those statements, I am at a loss to see what public abvantage would be gained by the admission of reporters to witness the flogging of criminals. I take it that the proper course to follow is to see that all such punishments are executed in the presence of certain official and responsible persons not connected with the gaol in order to see that they are properly applied. With this safeguard I think the public may rest content. As to the latter part of the hon. Member for Somersetshire's Question- which has reference to preventing the attendance of reporters at executions-I may say that the Sheriff has by statute the conduct of all those matters in the case of executions, and I have no power to interfere with his discretion. ARMY-MILITIA TRAINING. QUESTION. VISCOUNT EMLYN asked the Secretary of State for War, If it is true that the Militia Regiments in the United Kingdom are to be called out this year for twenty days' training instead of for the usual period of twenty-seven days; if so, what is the reason of this change; and, whether it is intended that the arrangement should be permanent, or merely for this year? COLONEL STANLEY: Sir, it is true that the Militia of the United Kingdom are to be called out for 20 days' training this year instead of 27, the usual time, and that it is also intended to curtail the period for Yeomanry training. I can hardly, within the limits of an answer, give details of the reason for the alteration; but I hope an opportunity will soon offer for the statement of my reasons for the curtailment. ARMY (INDIA)—PAYMENT OF TRAVEL LING EXPENSES-THE 3RD HUSSARS. QUESTION. MAJOR O'BEIRNE asked the Under Secretary of State for India, If he will explain why the Indian Government allowed the claim for travelling expenses in England of the Paymaster of the 3rd Hussars in December 1872, and again in October 1873, and how this fact is in accordance with the invariable rule of the Indian Government to disallow the travelling expenses in England of an officer ordered home from India on sick leave; and, does the order of the Indian Government of November 1878 apply to the Paymaster of the 3rd Hussars, who was directed to proceed to England to |