and that was made as a point by the gentleman from New Hampshire with which I believe we are all in agreement. Along the line of the news aspect, with the understanding that the freedom is basically yours, what do we do from the congressional standpoint to cooperate so that it makes it possible for you to do a better job; how do we work together to make it possible.

May I ask several questions. Now, No. 1, on our House side, our House committees, some, more than others, are generally open, or at least potentially open.

Have you often been refused, since the House rules have been changed in this regard, the right to cover House committee proceedings?

Mr. Jordan, do you want to lead off?

Mr. JORDAN. The answer to the question is yes, we have been refused. Representative DELLENBACK. Does it vary from committee to committee, or does it vary from time to time?"

Mr. JORDAN. It tends to vary from committee to committee.

I could not go into any more detail today, but in general, I would say it tends to vary from committee to committee rather than from time to time.

Representative DELLENBACK. One of my committees is the Education and Labor Committee, which has long prided itself on being open, including markup sessions. The Interior Committee, on which I also served, has recently made some steps in this direction."

I would be interested, do any of you recall either of those committees refusing requests for openness or coverage?

Mr. Small, Mr. Lynch, Mr. Davis?

Mr. JORDAN. I do not think we do recall, Mr. Dellenback, but I would not want to let this occasion go by without saying something that I know the three networks feel strongly about, that is the situation in the House as far as access is just so much better now than it was 2 years ago, just so much better.

Representative DELLENBACK. And it took some prying, and some of those on this particular committee have been among those who have been pushing for this.

I think everyone of us who is here now has been playing an important role in trying to open up Congress.

We worked to try to make open hearings a part of the process.
Representative BROOKS. Mr. Dellenback, would you yield?

Mr. Jordan, would you be kind enough to furnish the committee. with your statistics on refusal to televise hearings in the House and Senate, the Senate on one side, and the House on the other, and then I would like to furnish the committee with the House rules on that, which provide for votes in open committee to close a hearing, and see how those jibe with your figures, and whether they are current.

I think that would be interesting. I do not fully agree with that. I am surprised at your answer.

Can you furnish that information?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, sir.

Representative BROOKS. And I understand you are often refused opportunity to go to hearings.

Mr. SMALL. Two of the most important committees, the House Ways and Means and the House Armed Services Committee, almost never permit television to cover their hearings.

Representative DELLENBACK. If I may amplify on the chairman's position in that regard, it would be very helpful to us, and we say it from the standpoint of frankly being interested in opening it up still further, and from the standpoint of your networks, you can give us some specifics on this. It is not in the sense of putting you on the line we ask you, but rather in the sense we would like to be able to follow it down.

Mr. JORDAN. Yes, sir.

I think I understand what you want both from the House side and the Senate side, and we will furnish that information.

Representative GIAIMO. Will you yield, Mr. Dellenback, on that

point?

I just want to make the record a little clearer. Although we have made some progress on the House side, we really have not made as much as we should.

You mentioned two committees. The Appropriations Committee, to my recollection, has not had any except the original overall budget hearings televised, and some committee hearings. Is not that correct? There have been no open meetings of the full committee to my knowledge.

Have you been able to televise any of the committee meetings of Appropriations?

I do not want you to answer that unless you are positive. You can furnish it for the record, but my impression is that the meetings are not televised.

They could be, I suppose, but the important thing I would like to raise is that although hearings may be televised, the real important meetings, and I will use my committee, the Appropriations Committee, the markup sessions are closed to everyone, in every single instance. Don't you think those should be opened?

Mr. LYNCH. Yes, indeed, and it was encouraging to see it in the report that was prepared by Mr. Stewart.

Representative DELLENBACK. Mr. Chairman, I recognize we now have a vote on the House side, and we have a long trip to make.

There are other questions that quite frankly I hope to ask, but I find the 5-minute rule is not applied quite so readily on this side of the Hill as it is over on the House side, and so my list has been growing longer and longer as I sat and listened to my learned colleague.

May we ask this, if the witnesses are willing to do this, I seek this not for the sake of doing anything other than gaining information, I have a series of questions I would like to reduce to writing. If I prepare those, and through staff, submit them to the networks, would the witnesses be willing to give us the benefit of their thinking on these matters?

Mr. JORDAN. Yes.

Mr. LYNCH. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. SMALL. Yes.

Representative BROOKS. That will be done then, and I think the staff may have a few questions.

I have one which I will ask you to answer, not now, but for the record, as to the aspects of congressional activities you feel are not covered as well by television news as they should be, and what areas you think they ought to be, other than on the floor day and night, but other than that, what else should be covered, and we have some others, they are for information, and we would appreciate, gentlemen, if you all would take time to consider them.

I realize it means you might have to call yourselves together and go over them, and have somebody take them down, we hate to impose on you to that extent since there are four of you.

Representative DELLENBACK. Mr. Chairman, may we ask unanimous consent that those questions and answers be made a part of our committee record?

Representative BROOKS. They will be.

Gentlemen, I want to thank you, and say on my own behalf, to ask you to think if you were an individual Member of Congress trying to represent a constituency in the West or anywhere, how would you go about trying to get some coverage, trying to think about the average Member, what his problem is.

You have the background, and you know how to handle your business, and maybe you could pass on some of that expertise and experience in a manner that would be helpful, to the average Member of Congress, and how they could do a better job in getting their information across, because each of them feels it is significant. If you would like a list of those items that you feel are particularly pertinent, your space problem, clearance problems, committee arrangements, accessibility, if you would think of those from a technical point of view what could be done, and you all know what could be done, and there can possibly be some adjustments made in the committee rules.

Congress is not fixed and ironclad in its position on this subject, and I think they are quite willing if you in the media will come up with logical, feasible, and workable suggestions. I think you will find Congress receptive to them, and we appreciate your being here today, and I particularly enjoy the association, and I just wish that we had more coverage in my district.

Without any further ado, the committee will stand in recess until March 7, for continuation of this hearing on the House side of the Capitol.

[Whereupon, the committee was recessed at 3:45 p.m.]

CONGRESS AND MASS COMMUNICATIONS

THURSDAY, MARCH 7, 1974

U.S. SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, JOINT COMMITTEE ON CONGRESSIONAL OPERATIONS, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in the Sam Rayburn Building, Hon. Lee Metcalf, chairman, presiding.

Present: Senator Metcalf, and Representatives Cleveland and Dellenback.

Chairman METCALF. The Joint Committee on Congressional Operations will be in order.

This morning, as we continue to look into the relationship between Congress and the mass media, we will resume hearing testimony from spokesmen for both commercial and public television.

During the first days of the Joint Committee's hearings 2 weeks ago we heard from the presidents of the Columbia Broadcasting System and the American Broadcasting Co., along with the Washington bureau chiefs of four major networks. Their willingness to widen their coverage of Congress if permitted to do so-was documented during the 2d day of the hearings.

Let me once again emphasize this point: None of us are advocating any kind of slick public relations program for Congress. We are aware that Congress has its shortcomings.

We are not interested in managing the news, Madison Avenue imagemaking, or in packaging the Congress for a hard-sell campaign through the media.

But it is clear that we must now consider methods, consistent with this institution's lawmaking function, which could permit Congress to bring more meaningful information more directly to more of our citizens. Certainly, we must at this time carefully examine any customs or other aspects of our operation that might discourage the news media or the public generally from seeing-and understanding the activities and role of the National Legislature.

Four of my colleagues in the Senate and four Members of the House of Representatives testified on the opening day of these hearings in varying degrees of support for the proposition that congressional committee hearings and floor debates should be more readily accessible to the broadcast media and other members of the press.

Additional statements from leaders in both the House and the Senate are expected during the course of these hearings and I am delighted to see that my good friend and able colleague, Senator Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia-the distinguished assistant Senate majority leader-is to be our leadoff witness this morning.