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Mr. BAILEY. Excellent, but it doesn't happen once in a hundred times. Somebody who has a peculiar ability for that particular job. It occurs to me if there is a man in the department for 25 years he ought to have some particular ability. So there is some dead timber there.

Mr. HARDY. Do I infer from that that the people who come up through the ranks of civil service to department heads, division heads in the various departments, you feel, because of their association in civil service, are not qualified for their jobs?

Mr. BAILEY. Too many of them are looking toward the retirement date. That is rather a blunt answer. Maybe I shouldn't have stated that, but since I said it let it stay in the record.

Mr. HARDY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KARSTEN. Mr. Bailey, you mentioned that there were seven dams. Is that in West Virginia or Ohio?

Mr. BAILEY. Six of them are in the mountain regions of West Virginia. Most of them in Ohio have been completed.

Mr. KARSTEN. Were those Ohio dams engineering projects of the engineers or were there other agencies involved in that

Mr. BAILEY. In some cases the State of Ohio made some appropriations. They are multiple-purpose dams, not only for flood control but for soil conservation. But the major ones of them have been built by and at Government expense.

Mr. KARSTEN. The engineers are interested primarily in flood control and navigation, rather than erosion and reclamation and those subjects.

Mr. BAILEY. To a certain extent that is true, but of recent date they are becoming interested in three-phase, multiple-purpose dams, which would be soil conservation and a pure supply of water as well as flood control.

Mr. KARSTEN. The dams I have seen in Ohio appear to be multiplepurpose dams, which means the engineers had a voice in it, perhaps.

Mr. BAILEY. Let me say to you in explanation that that Ohio country over there is fairly level country. It doesn't have the elevation that the mountainous sections of West Virginia have, which feeds the Monongahela River and joins the Allegheny River at Pittsburgh to form the Ohio. We have cut most of the timber off those mountains and water that ordinarily would be 24 hours reaching the stream actually reaches the stream in 4 or 5 hours. It has a terrific velocity. That is what does the damage.

Mr. KARSTEN. Do you have any idea how much money the engineers have spent on these so-called seven dams?

Mr. BAILEY. Of those seven that I am speaking of, they built two. They built the Grafton Dam on the Tygart Valley River and they built the Bluestone. Those are the only two that have been built in the State of West Virginia. There are still seven to complete there for the entire program.

Mr. KARSTEN. I am just wondering what they spent.

Mr. BAILEY. I think the Grafton Dam is estimated to have cost about $12,000,000 and I think the Bluestone was estimated originally about that, but probably will cost 22 or 23 million dollars to complete.

Mr. KARSTEN. I know in Missouri every year we have appropriated millions of dollars for the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers, and of

course we still have the same floods out my way that we had 20 years ago. The engineers I know have been working on the matter as long as I can remember. Mr. HARDY. Will the gentleman yield to me to get back to this a minute? I got off the bill and I think my friend is also off. I would like to get back to the bill for just a minute. Mr. Bailey, I am sure you are familiar with the provisions of this bill, and you know that it gives the President the authority to reorganize all the branches of the executive department. Do you have any specific reason why there should be any preferential treatment for the Army engineers as compared to other agencies? Mr. BAILEY. I have been giving you those reasons. Mr. HARDY. I don't quite follow all of them. If there is dead timber in the Army engineers Mr. BAILEY. That is what Mr. Hoover said. Not in the Army engineers, in your civil-service departments. Mr. HARDY. I am going along with you on that. Wherever there is inefficiency, I believe we all agree that the President should take steps to reorganize and get rid of it and correct any inefficiency that he finds. Mr. BAILEY. I agree with you. Mr. HARDY. If there is any in the Army engineers, shouldn’t he have the right to eliminate that? Mr. BAILEY. Do you know of anybody ever protesting their work? Mr. HARDY. I didn’t ask you that question. I asked you a specific question. Mr. BAILEY. I would say he should have the same right, but I still don’t think there would be sufficient ground for doing it. Mr. HARDY. That may be. That is an entirely different point. I asked you for some specific reason to differentiate between the authority which the President might have over Army engineers and over other agencies. Mr. BAILEY. That would depend on whether he was setting them up as an independent authority or whther he was attaching them to some bureau where he would have political influence. Mr. HARDY. I am looking for information and enlightenment, Mr. Bailev. Monry. I am sorry if I am avoiding some of your questions, Mr. HARDY. You are. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bonner. Mr. KARSTEN. I have one more question. I would like to ask Mr. Bailey, if such an amendment were adopted, would you support the bill 2 Mr. BAILEY. An amendment leaving it— Mr. KARSTEN. Leaving the engineers embodied as they are. Mr. BAILEY. I would on my present information concerning the bill; €S, SII’. y Mr. Karsten. What about the Railroad Retirement Board? It has been suggested that it will be exempted. Mr. BAILEY. It will be; won’t it? Mr. KARSTEN. I want to know if you think that also should be exempted. Mr. BAILEY. I assume that it was.

Mr. KARSTEN. We have no exemptions at all in the present bill.
Mr. BAILEY. 0. K., then, I will add one more.
Mr. KARSTEN. Now you want four.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bonner.
Mr. BONNER. You say there isn't any in the bill?
Mr. BAILEY. None of them are excluded, is that right?

Mr. BONNER. I mean by that, unless the Railroad Retirement Board is put in here, you would be opposed to it.

Mr. BAILEY. That is right. I don't think it has any business in it. I think it is functioning well enough to be let alone.

Mr. HARDY. You don't think there is any dead timber in that?
Mr. BAILEY. There might be, now.

Mr. BONNER. Is the majority of the Government, in your opinion, functioning all right, the executive departments ?

Mr. BAILEY. That is rather a leading question, but I will answer it by saying that a good bit of my actual life has been spent in such work as supervising employees of the State of West Virginia as assistant State auditor and State director of the budget. It has been my business to make up a classification of employees for the State of West Virginia and to fix their duties. I would have to answer your question in the affirmative.

Mr. BONNER. That the majority has your approval. You give your approval to about seven different agencies of the Government conducting a census? Mr. BAILEY. I don't know enough about it to answer your question. Mr. BONNER. We have the Census Bureau. Mr. BAILEY. That I understand.

Mr. BONNER. Then the Department of Agriculture conducts a census, then the Interior conducts a census, then Labor conducts a census. Does that meet your approval?

Mr. BAILEY. No; I think we could centralize that.

Mr. BONNER. That is what we are trying to do in the bill, Mr. Bailey. It is impossible to meet my personal wish here, and it is impossible to meet your personal wish, and I was in hopes before the last question came up to you that if some system could be worked out whereby the national defense would be dealt with in one message, then the bill would have your approval. There are other agencies of the Government that deal with a subject that I am sympathetic to Labor, the Labor Department. You are sympathetic to the Labor Department because you mentioned the Railroad Retirement Board. Would you want the Labor Department exempt from this classification!

Mr. BAILEY. No: I don't think so.

Mr. BONNER. If you trust the primary department of Government, the Labor Department, that deals with a subject that I know you are interested in, and I am interested in, then why not let the Railroad Retirement Board be dealt with as the Labor Department might be dealt with?

Mr. BAILEY. I will answer the Congressman by saying that the civil functions of the Government ought to be kept separate from your Military Establishment. Mr. BONNER. I am not talking about mixing the military establish

I think we are going to work out some solution on this engineering problem. I have no doubt but that there will be some

ments up

solution that will satisfy you. The majority of the Members of this Congress recognize that we are sympathetic toward the working people.

Mr. BAILEY. I appreciate your feeling.

Mr. BONNER. Your other question throws me a little off the track. I was going to pass you over until you mentioned the Retirement Board. I just don't see the consistency, if you objected to dealing with the Retirement Board in any phase, if it should happen to be dealt with

Mr. BAILEY. You are Congressman Bonner?
Mr. BONNER. Bonner, from North Carolina.

Mr. BAILEY. Have you ever considered that that Railroad Retirement is really not a Government function?

Mr. BONNER. I know. You pay your part, and it is just the supervision, that is all.

Mr. BAILEY. The Government is just a trustee for that fund.

Mr. BONNER. That is right, supervision and trustee. I don't believe it is going to be bothered any. It works nice, and it has been an example to all other agencies to try to come up and compete with it. It has been splendid.

Mr. BAILEY. In other words, it is not a tax-supported organization. Mr. BONNER. So I don't think you have anything to fear.

Mr. BAILEY. Fine. Now I hope you gentlemen will prepare a bill here that I can vote for with good grace.

Mr. BONNER. If we take care of the engineering feature, then, you would go along?

Mr. BAILEY. That is right.
Mr. BONNER. Good.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment, Congressman. We may have some other questions. Mr. Sadowski? Mr. Blatnik?

Mr. WAGNER. You presume that there is more deadwood among the civilian agencies than among the military, and I consider that presumption debatable.

Mr. BAILEY. Did I say there was dead timber in the military?

Mr. WAGNER. No; you were talking about the dead timber in the civil service. I consider it debatable that there is more in the civil service than there is anywhere in the military.

Mr. BAILEY. I said I was quoting from Mr. Hoover's report which I have read most of.

Mr. WAGNER. What are your personal feelings on that?

Mr. BAILEY. My personal feelings are if you apply it to some of the Federal departments, he is right; that there is a lot of dead timber.

Mr. WAGNER. You don't think there is any in the military service? Mr. BAILEY. Probably so, but not in the Corps of Army Engineers. Mr. WAGNER. I can't see how they could be so exceptional from the other arms of the service.

Mr. BLATNIK. Did I understand the gentleman to say he read the Hoover Commission report?

Mr. BAILEY. I haven't read all of it but I have read part of it. Mr. BLATNIK. Has that been made available, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. BONNER. From time to time the New York Times has been carrying it. That is where you read it.

Mr. BAILEY. Yes; 2 or 3 weeks ago or a month ago it started.

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Mr. LANHAM. That was just a task force of the Hoover Commission, as I understand it. The Hoover Commission hasn't agreed to those things yet, as I understand it.

Mr. BAILEY. . But I assumed they knew what they were talking about or it wouldn't have been released in the papers.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions? Thank you very much, Congressman. We are happy to have had you with us.

We have a Mr. Everett T. Winter, Omaha, Nebr., vice president of the Mississippi Valley Association, who has a short statement to make to us.

STATEMENT OF EVERETT T. WINTER, VICE PRESIDENT,
MISSISSIPPI WALLEY ASSOCIATION, OMAHA, NEBR.

Mr. WINTER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my statement will be very, very short. My name is Everett T. Winter, My home is in Omaha, Nebr. I am vice president of the Mississippi Valley Association. Mr. KARSTEN. At that point, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest he describe his association, what it is and its objectives. Mr. WINTER. I will be very glad to do so. The Mississippi Valley Association was organized in 1919 for the purpose of developing the midcontinent area of the United States. We have memberships in 23 midcontinent States reaching from the Gulf of Mexico to the Appalachians, from the Rocky Mountains to the Mexican border. At our last meeting we had approximately 600 voting delegates present. They represent every known industry. No one industry contributes over about 6 percent of the total budget of these organizations. Chambers of Commerce, business groups, agricultural groups, and other groups belong to the association. It is open to any one who wishes to join. Mr. KARSTEN. You said development of the area. Could you enlarge upon that for us? Mr. WINTER. Yes, sir; we started in primarily as a barge line organization. It was organized originally by barge line operators. After operating a number of years the operators discovered that there was a very direct connection between the operation of barges and flood control. We got very much interested in flood control and have taken an active part in it. In the last 4 or 5 years we have taken a very active part in the soil conservation program. We have held short courses for soil conservation district supervisors at our expense in many of the midcontinent States. We are very much interested in the multiple development of the midcontinent area. I would very much like, Mr. Chairman, not taking time to eulogize the Army Corps of Engineers, we would like very much to have the exemption put into this bill. Congressmen Picket, Whittington, Brooks, Gathings, and all the rest of them have done such an excellent job of this, anything I would say would be very weak indeed. I want to speak to two points that have been raised here today in this discussion. The first one is why do we fear the lack of an exemption in this bill? My home is in the heart of that area that is being developed by the Pick-Sloan plan. As far back as 1923 Her

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