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determined primarily by the volume of Government disbursements which are based on estimates submitted by the departments and agencies as follows:

Check work load by disbursing agency

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2. General banking services. General banking services are provided for Government accountable officers and for banks in the District of Columbia, including the receipt and deposit of funds, cashing of Government checks, collection of checks, drafts, and money orders, and other similar banking services.

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3. Issue and retirement of currency. This activity includes the issuance and distribution of currency, the retirement of currency no longer fit for circulation, and the redemption of mutilated currency:

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4. Maintenance of the Treasurer's accounts.--This activity includes the maintenance of the official accounts of the Treasurer of the United States and the preparation of fiscal statements and financial reports based on such accounts.

5. Payment and custody of securities.-This activity covers generally the payment of principal and interest on Government securities and expenses incident to providing facilities for custody and safekeeping of savings bonds and other securities. The decrease in 1951 is due to changes in procedures with respect to the audit of interest coupons.

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PUBLIC DEBT OUTSTANDING Mr. Gary. We will also insert at this point the table appearing on page 87 of the justification, showing a comparative statement of public debt outstanding. I wonder if you could bring that up to date by putting another column on there for December?

Mr. FUNK. I do not believe December would be available. That would be through November 30.

Mr. GARY. What date is that which you use for 1919 ?

Mr. FUNK. June. · Mr. Gary. Do you use June for all the rest of them?

Mr. FUNK. Yes, sir.

Mr. Johnson. They can bring this last column up to date for the last 6 months.

(The material referred to follows:)

Comparative statement of public debt outstanding as of June 30 each year

(In millions of dollars)

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Mr. Gary. Also, I would like to have a table that was placed in the record last year at my request, showing the distribution of the debt.

Mr. Johnson. That statement, Mr. Chairman, as I recall, was one of the statements that was placed in following the Secretary's testimony, which we can put in as you want. I just wanted to be sure which one you had in mind.

Mr. Gary. I had the one in mind showing the portion of the debt held by banks, the portion held by savings banks, and the portion held by individuals and by insurance companies.

Mr. SLINDEE. That was in connection with the Secretary's testimony.

Mr. FUNK. I remember that you asked for it in connection with our hearings, but I am pretty sure Mr. Johnson had that put in.

Mr. GARY. I do not care where it goes in. I would just like to have a similar table. Would you prepare that table? Would that be in your Department? Mr. JOHNSON. No; but we will take care of it, Mr. Chairman. Mr. CANFIELD. Georgia Neese Clark. That is a pretty name. Mrs. CLARK. Thank you.

Mr. CANFIELD. And it looks good on the paper currency of the United States.

I, too, Mrs. Clark, am glad to greet you as the new Treasurer of the United States. I wonder if perchance we will have to reform a part of your statement of the justifications, in which you say that

The Treasurer of the United States is the official custodian of the public funds. All public moneys are required to be deposited to the credit of his account in Federal Reserve banks and other designated Government depositories.

Mr. SLINDEE. We stand corrected on that.

Mr. CANFIELD. Your predecessor, as the chairman has said, was a most interesting witness before our committee. However, he always indulged in a little salty language. While we do not expect that of you, we do hope that you will have one pet aversion that he had. That was the enormous public debt.

Will you tell us now, Mrs. Clark, what the latest figure is on the public debt of the United States?

Mrs. CLARK. About $257,000,000,000.

Mr. CANFIELD. Mr. Julian had been in countries abroad. He had seen countries suffering from great inflation. He had seen them go down and he was always one to express the hope that we would be able to pull our debt down sometime and retain the integrity and solvency of the country.

Mrs. CLARK. That has always been my feeling. Mr. CANFIELD. Your predecessor, incidentally, was placed in nomination several times for the Presidency of the United States.

Mrs. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. CANFIELD. That is a precedent?
Mrs. CLARK. Not for me.

Mr. COUDERT. I just hope, Mrs. Clark, that you will not feel badly at the unpopularity which will be yours among your colleagues after this committee has followed your example and reduced every appropriation by the same percentage as that with which you come in here. You really tempt us.

CONTINGENT EXPENSES, PUBLIC MONEYS

Obligations by activities Collecting, safekeeping, transferring, and disbursing public moneys of the United States :

$17,930

500, 000 --- 500,000

1949-------1950---1951.---

11

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Mr. Gary. You requested $475,000 for that appropriation for 1950. The Congress appropriated $450,000, and you are now asking for $500,000. What is the basis of that increase?

Mr. SLINDEE. That is due entirely to increased postal rates.
Mr. Gary. What is this item for?

Mr. SLINDEE. About 90 percent of it is for transportation of currency and coin between the Treasury and Federal Reserve banks, and the mint and Federal Reserve banks.

Mr. Gary. And how much have you obligated so far this year?
Mr. SLINDEE. So far this year we have obligated $250,773.
Mr. Gary. And that is up until what time?
Mr. FUNK. December 30.

Mr. Gary. You are asking that this be made a continuing appropriation ?

Mr. FUNK. A permanent indefinite appropriation.

Mr. SLINDEE. It would seem appropriate for us to do that. In looking back over the record we find that since 1940 the committee has had to consider nine supplemental appropriations—that is, nine deficiency appropriations—which does not seem to us to be good administration, because it costs something to put deficiency estimates through the mill. We have no administrative control over the volume of currency or coin required in commerce, nor do we have any administrative control over the transportation rates charged by the Post Office or commercial carriers. We do everything in our power to hold the volume to the minimum necessary to meet actual requirements and to effect shipments by the most economical means of transportation.

Mr. Gary. Who supervises this transportation ?

Mr. SLINDEE. We do. But we have to furnish the Federal Reserve bank, for distribution to their member banks, the currency that is required for use in commerce. After the currency is no longer fit for circulation, the Federal Reserve banks send it in, and we are required to reimburse them for the cost of transportation thereon. So, most of this is just out of one Government pocket and into the other. We are paying the Post Office Department for performing this work of transporting new currency out, new coin out, and old currency back.

Mr. Gary. Most of it is transported through the mail?
Mr. SLINDEE. Oh, yes; all the paper currency and most of the coin.

Mr. CANFIELD. Mrs. Clark, before you go, I would like to say this. I happen to be one of those who are delighted to see more women in high public office.

Mrs. Clark. Thank you.

Mr. CANFIELD. And I do not know whether you know the story of the girl that is up on top of our Nation's Capitol, up on the dome. I like to refer to her in speeches I make now and then.

Some of our illustrious predecessors back in 1863 exalted womanhood when they hoisted her up there, and we all salute her, be we civilians, the military brass, or what not, because her name is Freedom. I am sure that you and your colleagues in the Treasury can do a lot to maintain her there. Mrs. CLARK. Thank you. Mr. CANFIELD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. GARY. We are very much obliged to you. Mrs. CLARK. Thank you very much for your consideration.

TUESDAY, JANUARY 10, 1950. BUREAU OF INTERNAL REVENUE

WITNESSES

GEORGE J. SCHOENEMAN, COMMISSIONER
DANIEL A. BOLICH, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER
T. C. ATKESON, ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER
FREDERICK I. EVANS, BUDGET OFFICER
JOE N. McCOLLUM, ASSISTANT BUDGET OFFICER
A. H. CROSS, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, ACCOUNTS AND COLLECTIONS

UNIT
E. I. MCLARNEY, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, INCOME TAX UNIT
MARIUS FARIOLETTI, TAX ADVISER, MANAGEMENT STAFF, OFFICE

OF ASSISTANT TO COMMISSIONER JULIAN WILLIAMS, SUPERVISOR OF ACCOUNTS AND COLLECTIONS

Mr. Gary. We will take up this morning the budget request of the Bureau of Internal Revenue.

We are very glad to have you with us, Mr. Schoeneman. Would you like to make a general statement at this time?

Mr. SCHOENEMAN. I would, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GARY. We shall be glad to hear from you.

GENERAL STATEMENT Mr. SCHOENEMAN. The estimates before you have been prepared under the new "activity” or “program” method of presentation. This method provides all of us with a better basis for analyzing our operations and expenditures by objectives and by programs.

In one sense, the Bureau of Internal Revenue has but one objective and one program; namely, the administration of the internal revenue laws. For the fiscal year 1951, this objective means the collection of about $40,000,000,000. The figure that appeared in yesterday's paper in connection with the President's budget was $40,440,900,000. This figure is the gross internal-revenue receipts before refunds.

Mr. Gary. The refunds amount to approximately how much?
Mr. SCHOENEMAN. About $2,151,000,000, excluding interest.

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