"Whenever Protestant children attend let them not share in the duties of prayer or religious instruction unless at their own desire, sanctioned expressly by their parents; and when the number of such children shall be at all considerable the committee, if required, shall afford time and place for religious instruction being imparted to them by a person of their own communion, and in the manner prescribed by their

own pastors."

He (Mr. Gregory) had now said enough to show briefly some of the points which grated on the feelings of and offended those who spoke with authority on the subject of that education which was offered by the State to the children of the mass of the Irish people. He would now address himself to the great objections which were entertained alike by the majority and the minority, by the Protestant as well as by the Catholic, and that was the total absence of all religious teaching, which might be and was in many instances the characteristic of the system. The real charge against it was not that of proselytism, it was that of absolute indifference to all doctrinal teaching and distinctions; nay more, and far more, of absolute indifference to all religious teaching whatsoever. Hence came not conversions to the Church of England, or to the Church of Rome, but hence came a gradual, insensible, but certain drifting into practical infidelity. The hon. Member for Longford (Mr. O'Reilly) said rightly enough that the fruit of all this was Fenianism. That was what the clergy of both creeds dreaded and deplored that was the blot on the system. It was perfectly useless to throw to him as an unanswerable reply, the success of the system. He did not accept the argument. The fact of there being hundreds of thousands of children in the schools proved nothing. He (Mr. Gregory) did not even assert that there would be one child more instructed in Ireland under the Board if the system was altered. Education in Ireland was a State monopoly; it was like the railways, one must travel by it or not at all. Now, no power on earth can at present restrain the Irish people from education. The days had passed when they were content to be a nation of Gibeonites, hewers of wood and drawers of water; they had now entered the arena-they had contended with the same arms as Englishmen, and those who competed with them had no great cause for triumph. Now he (Mr. Gregory) said they had no right to use this immense monopoly in a way that offended the convictions and

which ran counter to the authority of those who had of all men a right to be heard on this subject. He meant the Ministers of both creeds. It may be said we deny the right of any clergy to arrogate to themselves any species of interference or superintendence in the education of the country. That was another question. He was not going to argue on that point now. It was quite sufficient to show that that claim had been recognized and acted on in England and proclaimed aloud by the heads of the two great parties. He would quote the words of the leader of the Tory party, Mr. Disraeli, at Oxford, in October, 1860. He says

which the nationality of a church is to be asserted, I say, in the first place, it is hardly necessary to affirm that the church should educate the people."

"If I am to consider what are the means by

Mr. Henley, in a debate last year, laid down distinctly that dogmatic teaching was an essential in all education; the present Member for Oxford University (Mr. Gathorne Hardy) followed, and asserted that no education would be right without doctrinal teaching, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer insisted that denominational instruction was the principle on which the whole fabric of English education rested. The claims, then, of the clergy in England are recognized-in Ireland they are ig nored. That mode of teaching which is thought essential for the young hearts and minds of England, is thought non-essential for the young hearts and minds of Ireland. Those impressions of reverence, faith, obedience, and religious duty, which are deemed necessary for a comparatively sober, calm, matter-of-fact race, are deemed unnecessary for a race quick, susceptible, ardent, imaginative, ready for good, but ready also for evil impulse. He would ask, did they think early religious teaching and restraint to be nothing in the training of such a race as this? Professor Butt, in his able pamphlet on freedom of education, makes this most pertinent remark—

"It seems an anomaly that a man who desires to found a school in which the children should be educated in the principles of their religious faith, should from that very fact be denied all State asinstruction is interwoven with the whole system sistance. In England it is different-religious of education. That which in England is made an indispensable condition of assistance, is treated in Ireland as a disqualification. The system which her own people is denied to Ireland, or rather in England has deliberately chosen as the best for Ireland is reversed. In a united kingdom reli gious freedom in education is regarded as a privi

lege which only one part of that kingdom is to enjoy."

And all this is done to keep up what was the merest myth of united education. He called it the myth, because it was notorious that in not more than a few counties in all Ireland was there to be found the semblance of this united education. In Ulster, no doubt, there were mixed schools, but with what result? Why that 16.000 notices were served on parents in Ulster, warning them that their children were attending the teaching of doctrines not their own. It might be said that the clergyman could teach them at certain hours, but that was not enough. He (Mr. Gregory) claimed for the Irish that constant and distinct teaching which Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Hardy, and Mr. Disraeli claimed for Englishmen. He contended that education in Ireland was carried on under the most vexatious supervision of a moral excise, a constant and harassing vigilance against contraband religious teaching. He would again appeal to them in the admirable words of Mr. Butt

"Such a system is just as destructive of all

in reading, writing, and knowledge of religion, the clergyman and teacher are permitted, after his fourteenth year, to dispense with the future attendance of the pupil. Neglect to have children duly educated is punished by fine and imprisonment. The poorest children are paid for entirely out of the parish rates, and those better off subscribe. Every manufacturer employing children is bound to maintain a school for them, and in factories children attend school in the evening, but then there are also Sunday schools, and inspectors are appointed to see that there is no evasion, which is punished by fine and imprisonment. Every parish must have its school and schoolmaster, and is left to manage the details. If a new school is to be established the parish authorities, elected by the householders, decide as to what description it is to be. According to the religious denomination of the parishioners it is Evangelical, Roman Catholic, or mixed. If there be a sufficient number of both sects then two schools are established, If the district be too poor to support two schools all children attend secular instruction, but the master imparts religious inetruction solely to those of his own faith, and the other children absent themselves while this is going on, and their clergyman undertakes the duty of instructing them. In no case does a Protestant child attend the instruction given to the Roman Catholic, or vice versa. The question whether the school is to be mixed or separate is left Now he (Mr. Gregory) would ask the House entirely to the parishioners. That is deto bear with him for five minutes, and to cided by the majority. Should the minohear what was going on in two Protestant rity be dissatisfied they have only to conStates, where education was more widely tribute for the support of a schoolhouse spread than in any other countries in the and teacher, and they are not called on world; he referred to Prussia and Hol- to subscribe to the other school. These land. He was almost using the words of efforts to obtain complete religious freedom a gentleman who devoted last autumn to have been crowned with success. The inquire into the religious and educational system at first met with opposition. Now systems prevalent in Germany and Hol- it is the subject of universal pride and land-the accuracy of all facts stated as satisfaction. The Roman Catholic clergy regards Prussia may be relied on, as they of Prussia are stricter even than in Ireland. were derived from Doctor Engel, Director Those books which Archbishop Murray of the Statistical Department of the Mi-approved of would not be tolerated there. nistry for Public Worship and Instruction The greatest jealousy is evinced at any atat Berlin. The State in Prussia insists tempt being made to entrust the teaching that every child shall be educated, leaving of a child on any subject connected the mode at the option of the parent. If with religion to any but a minister the parent cannot and does not educate or a member of it. No religious inproperly at home, he is obliged, at the struction, however small and unimportcompletion of their fifth year, to send his ant, would be permitted to be imparted children to an elementary school. They by a minister or teacher of a different remain there till they have completed their faith, and this feeling animates both fourteenth year, but if sufficiently advanced Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. Now, VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] 2 L

hearty earnestness. What nun can really feel her interest in her school not abated when she dares not speak at all times to her favourite pupil of the subjects that are most to her heart? What Protestant clergyman will be as zealous in his visits to a school in which if a boy asked him a question outside the house of religious instruction he must take care that his answer is one which will not appeal to any Protestant feeling in his

heart."

"It would appear as if Holland and Ireland were on a par as regards the system of National education. Intended to reconcile both religions to a common system, that introduced may be said to while we behold in Prussia a success almost inhave obtained their united disapprobation; and credible, after witnessing the results of other efforts for a like purpose, it is impossible not to be forced to the conclusion that any purely secular system would infallibly excite the hostility of those who wish their children to be brought up and instructed in the tenets of the faith which they themselves profess."

as to teachers, it will be seen that in Prussia attending private, or, as they are called, the normal schools which have caused such "Christian schools," is instanced as a proof deep dissatisfaction in Ireland are of a very of their dislike to "Godless education." A different character. There are in Prussia large and constantly increasing body of normal or training colleges, no less than malcontents are endeavouring to procure five or six in each province, established ex- the overthrow of the present system; and pressly for the training of teachers. The Protestant and Catholic, so seldom united, young men purporting to become school-join heartily in this. A very different state masters, after passing through the pri- of things is thus prevalent in Holland from mary and upper public schools, enter the that thorough unanimity which prevails in normal colleges at eighteen, and remain Prussia. His (Mr. Gregory's) informant there two or three years. Having gone saysthrough several examinations by the masters of the school and the Public Board of Examiners, they get their diploma, which enables them to accept the situation of teacher. This education is all but gratuitous, the cost being defrayed by the State. Some of the normal colleges are for Protestants, some for Roman Catholics -but while all are under civil surveillance so far as testing proficiency goes, the heads are generally ecclesiastic, it having been found that these institutions should have a religious character. The result of this system is this an admirable education pervading the whole community, only two out of 100 not being able to read, write, and cipher, and a thorough and cordial acceptance of it by every religious denomination. Now, if he turned to Holland, he found that the changes that have taken place in the educational system of that country are very remarkable, and illustrate our present position in Ireland. Education in Holland is not compulsory-it is mixed and purely secular-no religious instruction whatever is imparted. This exclusion of religious instruction dates only from 1857. Before that it was attempted to give combined secular and religious instruction, it having been imparted on those points on which both Churches, Roman Catholic and Protestant, were supposed to agree, terminating only when their respective doctrines oppose. "This failed," as well it might, "to give satisfaction to either sect. Those who favoured the present system think that bringing together children of all creeds establishes a friendly feeling and diminishes religious differences. The same arguments which are used in Ireland-namely, the large number of attendants at the schools-is instanced as a proof of the popularity of the system. These are the opinions of the few. On the other hand, the great majority and the almost unanimous feeling of the ministers of both religions is opposed to the present system, and the great number of children

Now, the Chief Secretary had said that this subject was full of difficulties, but the object of this Motion was to investigate these very difficulties, and to pave the way to their solution. He (Mr. Gregory) felt convinced that a system which was only a few years ago repudiated by the mass of the clergy of the Church of England, which was now objected to by the great body of the clergy of the Church of Rome, at least deserved inquiry. But he confessed that he could not conceive why, with the path clear before our feet, we could not walk in it. Why, with the example of Prussia to point the way, we might not strive to attain that blessed unanimity and concord which Prussia has attained. He took the concessions offered by the Chief Secretary with satisfaction, but he wished he had had the courage to go further, and to take the one course which alone could raise this great question of a nation's education from animosity, or, at best, distrust, and place it in such a position which would enable every member of the community cordially to endeavour to extend the blessings of instruction, untainted by suspicion, and hallowed by religion to every poor man's home in Ireland.

MR. SYNAN said, that the great grievance of which the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside) seemed to complain of was, that the National Board would not accept the terms of the Kildare Street Society, or, in other words, would not help that body to

proselytize Roman Catholic children. The stood from the statement of the Chief object of his hon. and gallant Friend Secretary for Ireland that they were on (Mr. O'Reilly's) Motion was to adapt the the eve of great changes in the National National system to the people of Ireland, system of education in Ireland. The right instead of compelling them to conform hon. Gentleman had shadowed forth two of themselves to the system. Out of 6,263 them, one having regard to the rules for reNational Schools in Ireland there were only ligious instruction in the National Schools, 1,400 mixed schools; so that in point of and the other affecting the model schools. fact one-fifth of the schools were mixed, As to the first, he understood the right and four-fifths were denominational. The hon. Gentleman to say that the subject fact was, that the National system was not was under the consideration of the Comreceived with favour in any part of Ireland, missioners, and that it was expected that and consequently was making very little they would propose some alterations in progress. He hoped that the step in the the rules with regard to religious educaright direction which the right hon. Gen- tion. The question of the model schools tleman the Secretary for Ireland said the was one deeply interesting to the people of Government were prepared to take would Ireland, and the Government, it seemed, be followed up by them, and he trusted were considering the changes which ought they would go further in that direction to be introduced, and what the character when they had started. He desired to call of those changes should be. He, however, attention to the small number of Roman rose for the purpose of asking whether the Catholics in the model schools. For the changes in the model schools to be proinstruction of 300 Roman Catholics in posed-should any be determined onthose schools the country had to pay would be submitted to the House before £30,000 for their erection, and £8,000 the Vote was taken this year for Irish a year for their support. It might be said education? that the hostility manifested against these schools arose from prejudice or a sentimental feeling; but it was founded upon the most sacred feeling of human nature -namely, religious feeling. He asked the House to grant what was indispensably necessary to the welfare of the country, which was freedom of education.

MR. O'REILLY said, he would not, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, press his Motion to a division. In the first place, he understood that the rules for the prevention of proselytism were under the consideration of the Commissioners. With regard to the second part of his Motion, opposition was brought against it on the belief that the proposals could not be practically carried out. With respect to the third point on which he had spoken, but which was not embodied in his Resolution for the reasons he had stated namely, the consideration of the present position of training schools in Ireland-the Government were far from holding that it was satisfactory, and they promised that it should receive their earnest consideration. He was quite ready to leave the responsibility of dealing with this subject with the Government, and he hoped the result would be the production of such a measure as would be satisfactory to the people of

Ireland.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS said, he under

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that although the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Hugh Cairns) had stated that great changes were about to be introduced into the National system of education in Ireland, his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland had not so described them in the earlier part of the evening. Of course, it was quite competent to the hon. and learned Gentleman to describe those changes in any terms he pleased; but he wished it to be understood that his right hon. Friend had not announced anything which in their opinion justified that description. But, whether the changes be great or not the subjects were of great interest, especially that part of the subject relating to the model schools. With respect to the question which the hon. and learned Gentleman had put, it was a very fair one. From the course of public business it was probable they would not be able to propose the Vote for Irish Education for some time. They were now in the middle of May, and several weeks must certainly elapseperhaps six or seven-before that Vote could be proposed. The interval would allow his right hon. Friend and the Irish Government time for considering any matters connected with this interesting subject, which was now under the examination of the Government; and he quite agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman that

it would be very desirable that whatever) and of the opportunity that was to be changes were proposed by Government afforded for its consideration. should be before the House when that Vote was taken. It was difficult to give any absolute pledge, but care would be taken, if possible, to put the House in possession of the views of the Government on the changes proposed before the Education Vote was proposed.