MR. CARDWELL: We are charged with endeavouring to stifle discussion, our desire being that the discussion shall pro

The introduction of the word "otherwise" which we have the opportunity of dispoints, therefore, to every part of the cussing the scheme of Parliamentary Rescheme other than the re-distribution of form as a whole. I trust that discussion seats. And then, forsooth, we are told by will proceed at both sides of the House the Secretary of State that the Amendment with the energy and ability that this great deals with nothing but the re-distribution and vital question requires, and that we of seats, and that the Government, for the shall not again be told by Members of the whole evening, have been under the im- Government that they are discovering bit pression that it was the only Question by bit what is really meant by the Mobefore the House. If that had been the tion submitted to the House. Question before the House, I should still have thought it worth attention and worth some answer from Her Majesty's Government. Yet the Chancellor of the Exche-ceed at the earliest possible moment, and quer says the Government are anxious to that it shall not be indefinitely or needencourage discussion. "Encouraging dis- lessly delayed. I appeal to the judgment cussion " apparently consists in allowing of the House whether the charge just Member after Member to get up and state made of endeavouring to stifle discussion objections, not merely to the proposed re- is properly attributable to those who desire distribution of seats, but to various other immediately and promptly to proceed with parts of the measure, and to sit down the discussion, or to those who seek to again without any response from the Trea- overlay the discussion with extraneous sury Benches, though in the course of the and unimportant matters leading to tedious evening we did certainly hear what I will and unprofitable delays. If the Motion not call a response, but observations from was of importance, as hon. Gentlemen say, the learned Solicitor General. After all they ought to be as anxious to proceed this, it is rather too much for the Secre- with the measure as Her Majesty's Gotary of State to get up and tell us that vernment. No objection has been offered the Government for the first time are by the Government to the Motion for adalive to what the question at issue is. I journment; their only objection is to not will not attribute to them any particular proceeding with the Bill at the earliest motive or object; but I will say that, in possible moment. point of fact, by the course they have pursued, they have done their best to stifle discussion. Every one knows that a very convenient way to stifle discussion and to end a debate is by not replying to the speaker. Those out of doors will judge of the course which has been taken in this debate, but I say that it certainly does not tend to promote free discussion of a question that the House is anxious to have fully sifted. With regard to the course taken at this side of the House, I assert that it has been free from ambiguity, and is not open to reproach. My right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, upon the second reading of the Bill for the Re-distribution of Seats, expressly stated his objections to the measure, and called attention to this fact, that as the House had required the complete measures of the Government to be laid before it, in order that these might be discussed on a whole, it was impossible to discuss the general merits of the scheme upon the Motion for the second reading of the Redistribution of Seats Bill. It is literally the case, and the Secretary of State cannot dispute that this is the first night on

MR. HUSSEY VIVIAN said, he had an abstract Resolution on the paper for next night, relating to the important subject of bribery at elections; but he was willing to waive his right in favour of the more important subject of Reform. He believed that the Government were in earnest to force this measure through the House, and he would postpone his Motion if the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Honiton (Mr. Baillie Cochrane), would postpone his Motion. [Mr. BAILLIE COCHRANE: No, no!] Well, then, if the hon. Member would not yield, neither would he give way, and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) who was speaking with the hon. Member for Honiton could no longer say that the Government were not prepared to discuss the question. He would not take the responsibility of standing between Her Majesty's Government and the discussion of this measure, and he put it to other hon. Members to stand up and say what he had stated-that they were prepared to withdraw their Resolutions, and allow the Government to proceed with this great measure.

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, that

SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY was at a loss to conceive why Her Majesty's Government should be so anxious to press this measure on for discussion. He was unable to appreciate the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary when he said that the Motion had not been given in sufficient time to allow the Government to meet it with a direct negative. Now, the reason why it was not done rested with the Government, and not with hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House, inasmuch as no House was made on Friday last. He concurred in the propriety of adjourning the debate.

notwithstanding the taunt that had been ever been introduced into that Housc. thrown out to the hon. and gallant Mem- So far as he was concerned, he had not ber for Wells, the delay had arisen from the remotest intention of postponing his the Government; for three Motions that Motion. were on the paper might have been disposed of on Friday if the Government had made a House; they would then not have now stopped the way. [Mr. HUSSEY VIVIAN: My Motion was not down for Friday.] He did not say that the hon. Member's Motion was down for that day, but Motions were on the paper for Friday, these might have been discussed and disposed of if a House had been made on that day; but the Government, being anxious for delay, did not then make a House, and the Motions therefore still stood in the way. The taunt against the hon. and gallant Member for Wells by the Home Secretary was equally misplaced. The right hon. Gentleman had charged the hon. and gallant Member for Wells with having altered the terms of his Motion during the debate. Notice of the Motion was given on Thursday; it became necessary to re-model it on Friday, and the hon. Member intended to have placed it on the books in its amended form. The House did not sit, and the hon. and gallant Member had no opportunity of doing so. He must retort on the Home Secretary the charge of sinister designs on that side of the House.

MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE said, that as his Motion had been pointedly alluded to, he must recall to the attention of the House the state of the case. He had given way once before on this Franchise Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exhequer then said that he did not intend to introduce the Re-distribution of Seats Bill because there were only twelve nights for discussing the Franchise Bill, and he did not calculate that private Members would postpone their Motions to suit the convenience of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman had since changed his mind, the whole of his policy with it, and introduced the other Bill; and was the whole business of the House to be postponed night after night to suit the pleasure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The Opposition was not interfering-nor did they wish to do so with the progress of the measure, or its free discussion; but it was not right that private Members should be called upon to postpone Motions of great importance, simply to carry a measure which he considered the most mischievous that had

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I move the adjournment of the debate to Thursday next.

No

MR. EARLE said, that after what had occurred at an earlier hour of the evening, he was not surprised that the hon. Gentle man the Member for Glamorganshire (Mr. Hussey Vivian) should be ready to withdraw his Motion, because that Motion was superseded by the Instruction moved by the hon. Baronet the Member for Northamptonshire (Sir Rainald Knightley). doubt, as the result of that Instruction, they would have another Bill from the Government, for he could not concur in the present opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was incumbent on the hon. Baronet to move clauses to carry out his Instruction. It might as well have been said that it was the duty of the noble Lord the Member for Chester (Earl Grosvenor) to introduce a Re-distribution of Seats Bill. The Home Secretary complained that no legitimate Amendment had been moved to the propositions of the Government. In the opinion of the right hon. Baronet the only legitimate Amendment would have been, "That the Speaker leave the Chair this day six months." But he (Mr. Earle) would remind the Home Secretary of the Amendment moved in 1859 by the present Prime Minister. The notice which now stood in his name related to the Danubian Principalities, a question which he believed every hon. Member would admit to be important, and which he (Mr. Earle) believed to be urgent. In his opinion the affairs of the people of those provinces were at present under what the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Locke) would describe as "a sinister influence," by which,

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN hoped the hon. Member for Buckingham would not go into the question, but would leave it to be discussed on his Motion when the Terminable Annuities Bill was again under discussion.

{LORDS} however, he did not mean the influence of] the hon. and gallant Member for Wells. He thought that those Provinces had some claim to the sympathy of the House of Commons, for they represented that they had already been disfranchised by a Conference, and that they were in hourly apprehension of being grouped by a Congress. Under those circumstance, he must decline to postpone his notice.

Question put, and agreed to.

Debate adjourned till Thursday.

MR. HUBBARD complained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not dealt frankly with him in respect of the Bill. When the subject of the Bill was first brought forward his right hon. Friend appealed to him not to delay the passing of the Resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means, as his doing so would delay the collection of Customs duties. He gave way; but on several subsequent occasions the order was placed in such a position on the paper that he had no opportunity of introducing the Motion of which he had given notice. The 24th instant was the first time he had an opportunity of saying anything on the subject, and then his right hon. Friend taxed him with making the Motion on the second reading of a Bill with which it had no connection, and accused him of obstructing the public busiHe would not go on with the Motion now, but would make it another time.

ness.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE. QUER said, he could not concur with his hon. Friend in the view which he took of the circumstances of the Bill. He took quite a different view of the matter. He did not want to interfere with his hon. Friend, who, of course, would exercise his own discretion.

Clauses and the Preamble.
Clause agreed to, as

House resumed.

were the other

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

that some reform in several of our great this Bill as it came from the Select Compublic schools was needed; and a feeling mittee of their Lordships' House of which also was general that in a national point he now proposed the second reading; and of view the importance of these schools he should very briefly point out its leadbeing made to fulfil their duties in the ing features. The Bill, as originally best possible manner could not be over- framed, proposed to confer new and enestimated. By that was meant that the larged powers on the existing governing area of education should be extended, bodies of these schools, and to give to those that that which was taught should be bodies so renovated full power to introduce thoroughly taught, and that the training and carry into effect what measures of of the boy's mind in those foundations reform they might consider advisable; should be such as to fit the man for the which reforms, however, were not to great walks of life, by developing and cul- become valid until they had received the tivating to the utmost the faculties, moral approval of the Queen in Council and had and mental, with which he was endowed. afterwards been submitted to Parliament, Now, it was unfortunately too well known so as to give every opportunity for discus-though the discovery was generally too sion and consideration. This active exerlate-that in many cases these duties had cise of power was to be limited to a cerbeen but imperfectly performed, and that tain period of time, which, however, might the best years of life had not been turned be extended by the Queen in Council or by to the best account. It was often observed Parliament. Now, these provisions grantthat the manly, honourable, straightfor- ing enlarged powers to the governing ward, unselfish character which was bodies had been struck out by the Seformed in these schools lost half its in- lect Committee; and had nothing been fluence and half its value through the ac substituted such a step would have companying ignorance, which unfitted the been very unwise, because though the man to take an active part in the compe- powers already vested in the governing tition of an intellectual and progressive bodies would have been continued, it age like the present, or to prove as useful a would, he thought, require a large amount member of society as he might have been. of charity to expect that they would have It was very important that our public been efficiently exercised. The Select Comschools should be made to keep pace with mittee, however, did not stop at omisthe requirements of the age, and that sions; but they provided in this Bill for whatever was inefficient in their present the appointment of Special Commissioners system should be amended. He should without whose approval no alteration in not allude to the merits, which were the statutes of the schools could be submany, and to the shortcomings, which mitted for the sanction of the Queen in were not few, of the schools that were the Council. This provision would obviously subject of the inquiry of the Royal Com- be a security against any improper or illmission, for he thought any reference to directed innovations. But, at the same that part of the subject would be irrele- time, it would afford no guarantee against vant on the present occasion. Their Lord- another contingency- namely, that no ships were aware that various measures of reforms at all, or reforms only to an inReform were recommended by the Com- finitesimal extent, might be proposed by missioners in their Report, and that many the governing bodies. It was accordingly valuable suggestions had been offered by provided, that after a limited time the them. It would also be in the recollec- powers of reform now vested in the tion of their Lordships that last year a Bill existing governing bodies should pass into was introduced into their House founded the hands of the Special Commissioners, on the Report of the Commissioners, which, who would thus be enabled to remedy any after undergoing considerable discussion, defects or shortcomings, and their Lordwas referred to a Select Committee, who ships would, he thought, be of opinion took evidence, heard counsel, and, as he that this machinery would work better was bound to state, made important amend- than that proposed in the original Bill. ments in the measure. The Bill so In one respect the powers for effecting reamended would have been at once pro- forms would be materially strengthened, ceeded with had not the impending disso- because it was provided that in all cases lution of Parliament rendered it impossible the Head Masters should be appointed by to expect that it could be carried through the governing body, and hold their office the Lower House that Session. It was at their pleasure, while the under Masters VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

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