had been freed at two, and in answer to a expressed the opinion, as he understood question which he asked in that House three years ago, it was stated that by the Saturday half-holiday in the Post Office the efficiency of the public service in that Department had been promoted, while the expense had not been increased. In several of the West End offices the holiday was to some extent practically granted, a part only of the clerks being compelled to remain in rotation. He was not, however, advocating the claims of young gentlemen in the West End offices; he was urging upon the Government the title which some of the hardest worked and worst paid of the public servants, those in the Customs and Revenue Departments especially, had to this slight relief. It was objected by some that the diminution of the hours of labour consequent upon the extension of this halfholiday would necessarily increase the public expenditure, but the only answer he had to make to that objection was that experience itself refuted the argument, because it had always been found that a diminution in the hours of labour had not been attended by a proportionate diminution in the amount of work produced. Then, again, it was objected that the clerks employed in the public service received six weeks or two months' leave in the course of the year. That objection might apply to the offices in the West End, but he questioned whether all the clerks in the Customs and other similar offices had as much leave of absence as those in the West End offices. The objection raised to the proposal to close the Foreign Office or the Home Office on Saturday afternoons on occasions of political importance did not apply, he thought, to the whole of the offices.

MR. CHILDERS thought the matter one of importance and of interest to the country at large, as well as to those more immediately concerned. But the question raised was also one of much difficulty, and he thought the House should pause before it adopted any Resolution upon the matter. He agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend as to the efficiency of the Civil Service clerks. He believed it was the opinion of all those who had inquired into the matter that the business of the country was well done, and that any arrangement for the future should be based upon the consideration that they had a good body of men who deserved encouragement. But he did not think the Civil Service as a whole was overworked. His hon, and gallant Friend

him, that it would be practicable, as far as the business of public offices generally was concerned, and only just to the clerks, to reduce their hours of work on Saturday; and also that to do so would not add to the public expenditure. On this he would say at once, that if public officers have full employment, working till four or five o'clock, it would in the great majority of cases be utterly impossible to do with the same number of persons if only to be employed on one day in the week till one o'clock. But irrespective of the mere question of cost, there was that of convenience both in the administration of Government and to those who had dealings with Government from outside. For instance, neither his hon. and gallant Friend nor any Member of the House would desire to see any of the offices of the Secretaries of State closed on a Saturday, because as much important political business was transacted on Saturdays as on other days. That he understood his hon. and gallant Friend did not propose. [Mr. O'REILLY, however, said he did propose it.] He would say that it was impossible to accede to such a proposal. He had been able to find no trace of the Royal Commission to which his hon. Friend had alluded, but a conference of the heads of the different Departments took place, and they were unanimous in the opinion that a general halfholiday could not be decided upon applicable to all Departments. The question then remained as to whether the Inland Revenue and other similar Offices could close on Saturdays at one instead of at four, as at present. The answer to that question depended upon the public. If merchants and other men of business would agree uniformly, and not simply by a majority, to close their houses at twelve or one Saturdays, then those Government Offices which transacted business with the public might be able to do the same. But at present the objection that merchants and traders would be obstructed in carrying on their business if all the Government Offices were closed on Saturday afternoons was a fatal one. In order to see what, if any, diminution in the hours of work should be granted, in justice to the Government clerks, he had caused inquiry to be made at several large offices in the City and elsewhere as to the number of hours the clerks were employed, and the holidays they were allowed. He found that one of the largest Railway Companies em

on

ments. He hoped his hon. Friend would not press upon the Government the adoption of a universal arrangement, because that would lead to considerable inconvenience.

ployed their clerks from nine to five, ex- the deduction of two hours a week from cept on Saturdays, when they ceased work the time the clerks were occupied would at one. They were allowed half-an-hour necessitate either an additional number of during that time for refreshment, and officers, or that they should be kept at fourteen days' holiday during the year. work during the period they usually took Thus they were employed for forty-four for their holidays. His hon. Friend had hours every week in the year except quoted the Audit Office, where a certain the fourteen days, and Good Friday and relaxation from work on Saturday was alChristmas Day. The clerks of the Bank lowed; but it was the peculiar character of England were employed from nine to of the business that rendered this possible four, with the exception of an hour for in that Office. They had no dealings with their dinner, but on Saturdays they closed any but public officers. The fact was, that at three. The ordinary clerks were also no general rule could be laid down, and the allowed eighteen days' holiday during the matter must be left to the discretion of year. One of the largest London Shipping the heads of the departments. In the Companies, which employed more clerks departments under the Treasury it was than any other office but one in the City at left to the superior officers to arrange the present time, required their clerks to the question of holidays in the best way serve from ten to four every day, and to they could, with the understanding that a later hour during their busy times. They leave of absence on Saturdays should be worked two hours less, however, on Satur- given to as many as possible in every day, and had three weeks' holiday during department. This plan operated well in the year. The clerks of the largest Joint- all the larger departments, with which he Stock Bank were employed for forty-seven was best acquainted; and he believed that hours during the week, and were allowed it worked well in all the small departfourteen days' holiday for the ordinary and three weeks for the superior clerks. The Insurance Companies employed their clerks from ten till four, and besides required them occasionally to work overtime. These clerks had two weeks or three weeks' holiday, in accordance to the class to which they belonged. From these figures it was evident that, although the clerks in the Government Offices were required to work from ten to four, they had a much longer holiday than the clerks of large Companies in the City. The clerks of the Inland Revenue Office, one of the largest of its kind, were allowed at least twenty-eight days' and some forty days' holiday. The clerks of the Customs Office were allowed thirty-two days, or five or six weeks. The Post Office clerks had only a months' leave, but some of them had the half-ness so much later in the morning. holidays to which his hon. Friend had alluded. The conclusion he drew from the whole circumstances of the case was, that if it were possible consistently with the requirements of merchants and traders to close the public offices earlier on Saturdays, it would be at the same time absolutely necessary to curtail the leave of absence at present given for four, five, or six weeks during the year. He assured his hon. Friend that the great majority of clerks in public offices were continuously employed during the hours of business, and that their continuous employment was well watched. He did not hesitate to say that

MR. KINNAIRD asked whether any Report had been presented on the subject, and whether it would be laid upon the table of the House? Had the Secretary to the Treasury listened to the observations of his hon. Friend below the gangway, he would have seen that he did not press upon the Government the desirability of curtailing the hours of employment at the offices at Whitehall or the West End; because, although the clerks in those offices were often detained late, particularly during the Session of Parliament, they, as it were, compensated themselves by coming to busi

He understood the Secretary to the Treasury to say that instructions had been given to the heads of the departments to use their own discretion in the matter. Now, there were certain periods in the year, as there were in every business, when such indulgence as that desired might be granted to those employed without any sort of inconvenience to the public service. He was fully convinced that a general rule applicable to every department could not be issued; but he would impress upon the Government the duty of giving instructions that every indulgence should be granted to the clerks when circumstances permitted.

Militia. He, therefore, could not under-neral DUNNE: During the year?] The stand the distrust which the Government Government had not yet decided whether had manifested towards the Irish Militia. the militia should be called out for training Another consideration which should weigh at a later period of the year-that could be with the Government was that private decided hereafter according to circumstanindividuals, counting upon the regular ces-but for the present Government had embodiment of the Militia, had incurred decided on not calling them out. In anlarge expenditure in preparing their houses swer to the second Question, he had to for the reception of the force in different state that the Government had not consulted parts of the country. It was a service the commanding officers of regiments upon capable of being rendered very popular; the subject because they did not consider by the outlay which it occasioned, benefit it to be their duty to do so. It was not was conferred upon many parts of the usual to do so, and it was useless as to any country; it acted to some extent as a nur- general military arrangement, for the reason sery for the army; upon every ground he that the Government were in a far better could conceive nothing more impolitic than position to know the political feeling of the the distrust shown by the Government in class from which the militia regiments declining to embody the Militia. Bearing were taken than the commanding officers in mind that the population of Ireland had of the regiments, who were disembodied, decreased to the extent of a quarter of a scattered over the country, and many of million since the last Census, he thought whom were non-residents. No official reit the duty of the Government to adopt ports of disaffection in the men from any every means, and especially so obvious a of the commanding officers of the regimeans as embodying the Militia, to keep ments had been received, and from the fact young men at home. If, on the contrary, of their being disembodied and scattered they were not trusted, and were held not over the country it was impossible that fit to be embodied, it would be better to such reports should have been received. disband the regiments at once. The same The House would readily believe that the assertion of disloyalty, unsupported by members of the Irish militia must inevitproof, would be equally an argument for ably be more or less affected by the spirit not having any Irish Militia whatever of Fenianism, as the class from which they now or hereafter. He should conclude were mainly recruited was unfortunately by asking the Chief Secretary for Ireland, more or less tainted with it, and without Whether it is intended by the Government meaning to cast any imputation on the only to suspend to a later period in this fidelity and loyalty of the militia as a body, year the annual training of the Irish Mi- it was impossible for them to escape from litia or not to call out that force during the infection. The Government had, therethe year 1866; whether this determination fore, thought it to be better to be on the has been taken after consultation with the safe side, and that it would be unfair to the Officers commanding regiments; and, whe- militia to call them together in large masses ther such Officers have reported disaffec- at a time when all the barracks in Ireland tion in the corps under their command; which usually received them were filled by and to move that those Reports, if any, detachments of troops, and to expose them be laid upon the table of the House? to the attempts and to the machinations of Fenian agents, who, the Government knew, from information they had received, had directed their endeavours especially, although he believed with limited success, to the corruption of the Irish militia.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, it was not quite so simple a question as the hon. and gallant Member appeared to think, whether or not they should call together at the present moment so large a number of men as were usually drawn from the large body of the population from which the militia was recruited. As the hon. and gallant Member did not believe in the existence of Fenianism he took a different view of the subject from that of the Government. With regard to the questions which had been put to him, he had to state that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to call out the militia regiments in Ireland for the present. [Ge

THE NEW LAW COURTS.-QUESTION.

MR. BENTINCK said, he would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works, If any determination has been come to with regard to the Resolution of the House, that it was desirable that more than six architects should be invited to compete for designs for the New Law Courts; and, also, whether any

alteration has been made in the body with | peting architects to twelve. The Comwhom rested the responsibility of selection; missioners therefore agreed to extend the and, further, whether any alteration has number to twelve, and they had accordbeen made in the time when the designs ingly selected the following architects to are to be sent in? On a former occasion be added to the number already selected objection was taken to persons appointed namely, Mr. Gilbert Scott, Mr. Edward to decide on the designs, on the ground Barry, Mr. Burgess, Mr. Seddon, Mr. Abrathat the Committee did not possess such ham, and Mr. Lockwood. It was also an acquaintance with the subject as would found that the object of having the decommand the respect of the architects. Of signs sent in at the time when those who the five persons so appointed one only had were to judge them could conveniently atany pretension to a knowledge of that kind tend in London might be gained by ex-namely, the hon. Baronet the Member tending the time for sending in the designs for Perthshire-the others being strictly to the 15th of December. With regard official personages-namely, the Chancellor to the question as to whether there was of the Exchequer, the Attorney General, any change in the constitution of the Comthe Lord Chancellor, and the First Committee who were to award the prizes, he missioner of Works. It was objected to on a former occasion that these Gentlemen had not sufficient time to devote to the subject, and he pressed on the attention of his right hon. Friend that an alteration should be made in the constitution of that Committee by the introduction of Gentlemen who possessed a special knowledge of the subject. It was absolutely necessary that some precautions should be taken to prevent these officials from being smitten with some design that would be a disgrace to the country in an architectural point of view.

The

had to reply that there was none. question who ought to decide in a competition among architects was one of considerable difficulty. On the one hand, it was of course desirable that those who were to judge should be aided by professional advisers; while, on the other hand, it was not desirable that the decision should be left exclusively to members of the architectural profession. He was not, however, aware of any competition in which the judges were exclusively of the architectural profession. Two courses were open. One was to select persons who had an interest in the building as the occupiers of it, and a responsibility in causing it to be erected, and to afford them the aid and counsel of professional architects. This was the course usually adopted by the directors of railways, by persons who built town halls, and by the various public authorities who had erected public buildings. It was also the course taken when designs were sent

MR. BERESFORD HOPE said, that before the right hon. Gentleman answered the Question he wished to put an analogous question to him relative to the National Gallery—namely, How many Architects he proposes to call upon to compete for the National Gallery; how long a time he proposes to allow them to send in their designs; and what class of persons it is proposed to call in to aid the right hon. Gen-in for the Houses of Parliament; and on tleman in coming to a decision?

MR. COWPER, in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Bentinck), had to state that Her Majesty's Government had called the attention of the Commission on the Courts of Justice to the opinion which the House had expressed in regard to the number of architects to be called on to compete for the Courts of Justice; and the Commissioners had come to the conclusion that the reasons which had appeared to them, in the first instance, to make it advisable to limit the number of architects to six-namely, the desirability of avoiding as much as possible interference with the ordinary practice of the courts and the wish to secure the leading men of the profession-did not preclude the enlargement of the number of com

the occasion of the designs being received for the Foreign Office and the War Office, there was only one architect among the judges, but two professional men were employed to act as assessors or make reports in order to assist the judges in coming to a decision. The year before last a case occurred in which a different precedent was established. In the designs for the Natural History Department of the British Museum five gentlemen were appointed judges, and of those three were architects. The Commission on the Courts of Justice had, however, deemed it advisable to follow the more ordinary course. On the Committee of Selection were the Lord Chief Justice and the Attorney General, both of whom were as competent as any persons could be to judge as to whether the pro