fourteen up-trains on that line every day-1800 injured by railway accidents. The an amount of accommodation being thus furnished of which he was sure no noble Lord would like to see the public deprived. The Returns of receipts on that line for last week were £12,775, showing a total of between £600,000 and £700,000 for the year. If, then, such results were produced under the existing system, he must ask his noble Friend to pause before he placed such a barrier as he proposed in the way of railway construction. It would be, he contended, a complete misapplication of a Standing Order to meddle between shareholders and directors, as his noble Friend sought to interfere, and he hoped their Lordships would not, by acceding to his suggestion, give encouragement to a system of monopoly which he could from his own experience state would operate most prejudicially. This was illustrated by the case of two railway companies in his neighbourhood, which, having a dispute as to the construction of a short line which would be of great advantage to the district into which it was proposed it should run, agreed to refer the matter to arbitration, the result of which was an award to the effect that the line should not be constructed by either. That, he thought, was not a decision which ought to induce the House to give monopolies to railways. Was it to be supposed that, when all their other Standing Orders had been evaded, the proposed Standing Orders would not be evaded also? There was, moreover, another objection to their proceeding in that manner without consultation with the other House of Parliament, which was that their Lordships would be undertaking to make what would be nei- LORD HARRIS said, he was astonished ther more nor less than a law-if it had any at the statement which the noble Lord effect at all. They would throw the whole the Chairman of the Committees, with his railway world, and not merely those who experience, had made with regard to the were interested as projectors and specula-issue of capital by the London, Chatham, tors, into great confusion if they insisted on one day that there should be a large deposit of money, while on the next day it might be taken out. The matter was one which ought to be more fully inquired into. Nobody was more alive than he was to the necessity of the regulation of railways; and there were matters which they might not be able to regulate by Standing Order, and those matters ought to be regulated by Bill. Among them he referred to the protection of life and property upon railways. He found from a Return that in the year 1864 no fewer than 220 persons were killed and about

proposal of the noble Lord was made avowedly with the view of stopping the progress of railways; but if that course were taken they would be going back to the policy of the Committee of 1825, which rejected the first railway between Manchester and Liverpool. He begged their Lordships, if they took any step to check railway speculation and the management of companies by their directors, to do so by an Act of Parliament, and not by a Standing Order, of which the only effect, if it had any effect at all, must be to arrest the progress of the wealth and commerce of the country.

An Amendment moved, to leave out

from ("That") and insert ("a Select Committee be appointed to consider how far it is expedient to amend the Standing Orders relating to Railways.")-(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said, that if the railways under the existing system had been properly laid out there might be some weight in the argument of the noble Lord who spoke last as to the impropriety of impeding railway enterprize. But not one-half of them had been so laid out. With regard to the question of the subscription contract, the proposal now made seemed to him to be necessary, and he thought it would have a salutary operation on the construction of railways, without being unduly restrictive. If it made the progress of these works a little slower than it had been, it would be a benefit rather than an injury to the country.

and Dover Railway Company. The noble Lord, as he understood him, had said that the Company had issued the first capital at a discount of 42, and the second and third capital at a discount of £27 108.

LORD REDESDALE explained that he had said there was an issue of £1,100,000 additional capital of the Company when they gave £40 fully paid up stock for £21, and subsequently an issue of £2,270,000, when they gave £100 for £27 10s. He had no doubt that that was issued by the contractors. He had seen the terms advertised. That capital was for the company's metropolitan line.

LORD HARRIS said, the fact was that accommodation they required, and a sepa a certain amount of capital was required rate and independent access to London to be raised for what was termed "the was accordingly made. A portion of the Metropolitan Extension" of the London, line-the western extension from BeckenChatham, and Dover Railway Company. ham-was actually a paying line. He The arrangement made was the same as should be exceedingly glad if a cheaper that which had been adopted in many mode of constructing railways could be other cases, and which had been most suc- secured, but the proposal of the noble cessful, in regard to the Great Northern Lord the Chairman of Committees would Railway-namely, that there should be a have a most prejudicial influence upon division of shares. B shares were put out railway enterprize, and would injuriously at par, and some of them were held as a affect the public interests. guarantee by the contractors. It was afterwards found necessary to make a fresh arrangement, and some C shares were issued. The contractors found that they required other money, and shares were issued which came as a third charge on the line, and which, consequently, were put out at a considerably lower rate. The contractors got the money without inconvenience, and the shareholders were aware of what had taken place. It was a greater advantage to the contractors to get that money without paying interest upon it than to have raised it at a higher rate. The London, Chatham, and Dover Railway consisted of different portions, and had a separate capital, which had nothing to do with that for the Metropolitan Extension. It had to do with the original line. It was a great disappointment to the directors that the capital invested in the line had not hitherto proved reproductive, but at the same time it did not follow that the shares would remain at their present market value. The shareholders must wait, as on other lines, until the railway could earn money enough to pay a sufficient dividend. The original stock did not exceed £700,000, and nearly £600,000 was bought by the holders at a small sum above £35; so that if the line met with the success for which the directors hoped the shares might yet be worth what they had cost. The London, Chatham, and Dover Company had its origin in a railway company formed some years ago to accommodate the district between Canterbury and Chatham. That district being unable to obtain the accommodation it required from the South Eastern Company, determined to make a line for itself of twenty-five miles in length to connect the towns of Chatham and Canterbury. They were subsequently encouraged by the Duke of Wellington's opinion of the military importance of the line to go on to Dover. They were again unable to induce the South Eastern Railway to give them the

EARL GREY said, that while he felt disposed to support the Motion of the noble Marquess for a Select Committee, he entirely differed from him as to the grounds for that proposal. The noble Marquess was quite right in saying that the Legislature ought to take no steps the effect of which would be to check the formation of railways; but the present state of things prevented the country from getting the accommodation it required. Railways were proposed by persons having no real command of capital wherewith to construct them. Their object was to make a profit from the passing of the Bill and the construction of the line, and then to get rid of the line before it was completed. He was far from saying that it was the business of Parliament to prevent the shareholders in these concerns from losing their money. He fully recognized the principle that individuals could take better care of themselves than Parliament could take care of them; but when the Legislature gave power to a company to construct a railway, it did two things-it empowered them compulsorily to take the property of other persons, and it gave them a virtual monopoly of making railways in that district. What was wanted was practically to secure that the railway should be judiciously planned and that it met a real want on the part of the public. He believed that the lines which were usually denominated "non-paying lines" were of great importance to the country, and ought to be encouraged. The main lines of communication had already been made, and the railways now required were of a minor character, and were not calculated to return more than a moderate interest upon the outlay of their construction; the principal advantage of such railways was to be found in the increased value of the districts through which they passed. These were the lines that they ought as far as possible to encourage, and they ought especially to hold out inducements which

would lead to the construction of such the evil which had been brought under railways by the people who would derive their notice. It seemed to him that the the greatest benefit from them when com- wiser course would be to send his noble pleted. With this view two years ago Par- Friend's proposal to a Committee upstairs, liament passed an Act which enabled the where it could be carefully considered by owners of estates to come forward in sup- those of their Lordships who had given port of railways which would improve the attention to railway matters, when such district in which their property was situ- Standing Orders might be framed as would ated. At present Railway Bills were chiefly meet the emergencies of the case. He promoted by contractors and persons who placed no faith in the opinion that anything sought their remuneration chiefly from the which Parliament did would act as a check expenses which attended the progress of upon speculation. He was old enough to the Bill through Parliament; it was to remember what took place in 1825 and these persons a matter of comparatively 1826, when people squandered their money little importance whether the line was as they had done since, although there needed, or whether it was judiciously were no railway schemes in which they planed, or whether it would be likely to could invest their capital. The existing make a return to the shareholders. Often- Standing Orders were framed for the protimes their object was simply to compel tection of those whose property was to be existing companies to purchase their in-compulsorily taken; and having taken terests at extravagant rates. He believed care that they were sufficient for that purthat the requirement that a considerable pose it was now their duty to see what portion of the capital should be really could be done to protect shareholders. raised before a line was undertaken would There were, it seemed to him, several debe an advantage to the public in the end, fects in the Resolutions proposed by the because while that was not done there was noble Lord, which would require the atno security for the construction of a line, tention of a Select Committee. For inand owners of property were left in a stance, it might, perhaps, be advisable not state of uncertainty as to whether the to allow any company to apply to Parliacompulsory powers of the Act would be ment in the same Session for more than exercised or not, and another evil was one second-class Bill; but he thought it that the money for completing lines would scarcely be advisable to make it neceswas raised on disadvantageous terms to sary that a subscription contract should be the detriment of undertakings of a better entered into by at least twenty subscribers. character. Parliament ought, as far as In many places the lines constructed were possible, to take care that compulsory short, and purely local in their character. powers and exclusive possession of the It would, therefore, he thought, be unwise line of railway should be given to those to require so many subscribers when a few only who had the means of carrying on good and substantial men would often be their undertaking, and that the powers willing to undertake all responsibility. granted by Parliament should not be em- As many subscribers only agreed to take ployed purely for the exclusion of others. shares in the proposed schemes on certain The present system, instead of tending, conditions, he thought that such conditions as his noble Friend supposed, to the pro- ought to be stated, and that an order makmotion and construction of railways in the ing this necessary should be framed. He best manner, and in those parts of the objected to Clause 2, because it authorized country where they were most needed, the payment of interest out of capital. A had precisely the contrary effect. It particular Act of Parliament permitted the tended rather to discredit the whole sys- payment of 4 per cent interest out of tem of railway enterprize in the public capital under certain circumstances; but mind, and to make people unwilling to the clause to which he referred authorized advance their money for the furtherance a further payment of interest out of capiof such schemes. tal. Turning to Clause 3 he found that the money to be lodged was not to be laid out on the works nccessary for the construction of the line until half the amount of the capital had been paid up.

LORD PORTMAN said, the question was not whether the Loudon, Chatham, and Dover Company was paying or not, or whether the Great Western wished for an additional line, but whether the remedy proposed by the Chairman of Committees was the right one to adopt in order to meet

LORD REDESDALE said, that the regulation referred to was identical with that contained in the existing Standing Order.

noble Lord (Lord Redesdale) would not object to the whole subject being sent before a Select Committee, and thus ascertain, at any rate, how far his propositions were likely to receive the assent of the other House of Parliament, and not unnecessarily interfere with the prosecution of undertakings which were of great importance to the country.

LORD PORTMAN said, that by Clause 10 it was provided that when in any Bill powers were applied for to amalgamate with any other company, or to sell or lease the undertaking, or to purchase or take on lease the undertaking of any other company, the company or persons with whom such agreements were to be made and the terms and conditions of such agreements should be specified in the Bill. In the event of such a clause being inserted Parliament would have no power to alter the terms of those agreements. He thought the whole question should be sent before a Select Committee.

THE DUKE OF CLEVELAND thought the subject was one for the House to determine. It would be useless to send the question before a Select Committee composed of Members holding different and even hostile views.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY EARL GRANVILLE said, he was sorry said, he thought it would be highly ob- to hear the noble Duke who had just sat jectionable that one House of Parliament down raise any objection to the matter should legislate as it were upon the future being sent before a Select Committee. He conditions upon which railway companies was certainly not prepared without having were to be entitled to come to Parliament. further information upon the subject to The Resolutions were framed upon the agree with the noble Lord who proposed principle of securing prudence in lending the alteration as to the extent of the evil money for the construction of railways, he complained of, or as to how far it was and in the carrying out of such undertak- possible to deal with that evil, and as to ings; but it did not appear to him that how far the alteration he proposed was those were matters in which Parliament the best method of extirpating it. He ought to interfere, any more than they should be sorry to force the House to a ought to interfere with the management division upon a subject which involved no of any other commercial transactions. He party feeling, especially as the Government thought the best course that could be was greatly indebted to the noble Lord for adopted with regard to the question would the assistance he had so frequently renbe to send it before a Select Committee, dered them in matters connected with the when the opinion of the leading Members regulations of the House. He thought it of the other House who took an interest would not be advisable to adopt these in railway legislation could be ascertained Resolutions without any communication as to whether subscription was the best whatever with the other House, and he mode of insuring the bond fide character hoped the noble Lord would not object to of the railway schemes brought before the appointment of a Select Committee. Parliament, and that by so doing they would thus avoid the danger of adopting Resolutions which they might afterwards have to abandon in consequence of the House of Commons refusing to join in their views. Subscription as a test of that kind had been abandoned because it had been found impossible to insure that the subscription list was bond fide. The principal point they had to insure was that the persons whose lands were compulsorily taken under the powers of the Railway Acts should have some security that the lines should be completed, and as long as that security was obtained he saw no reason for throwing impediments in the way of lines promoted by contractors, who frequently projected and constructed through mineral and other districts railways which were of the greatest advantage to the localities. He hoped the

LORD REDESDALE said, he felt himself placed in a difficulty. He feared that if he acceded to the Amendment of the noble Marquess, the object he had in view would be defeated. He had no objection to some arrangement being come to whereby an opportunity might be afforded of taking the opinions of leading Members of the other House upon it. At the same time he feared that at this late period of the Session if a Select Committee of their Lordships were appointed, in the terms of the Amendment, to consider generally how far it was expedient to amend the Standing Orders relating to railways, it would be impossible to obtain the concurrence of the other House. He would be willing to withdraw his Motion if he were allowed to propose the appointment of a Select Committee, to consider how far it was right or expedient to assent to the amendment of