withheld their hand, he was sure that bene- | by the Crown. It had been used for a long factors would come forward as in the case time as a record office, but since the erecof other great national institutions, and that a sufficient sum would be raised to locate it. At present it appeared to be an airy being, which, though it had a name, had no habitation. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the Vote did not involve the principle of grants towards the foundation of Colleges in London and elsewhere. The London University had been in existence some years, and was an essential part of the educational institutions of the country, and what was now proposed to be done was in reality only carrying out what Parliament had agreed to twenty-five years ago, but there was no intention of founding other establishments out of the public purse. GENERAL DUNNE had had no answer to his question as to the Vote to the London University being £67,000, while that to Ireland, under precisely similar circumstances, was only £10,000. MR. CHILDERS explained that the London University had from 1,000 to 1,100 students, while the Irish University had about 300, and the accommodation required for the two institutions was therefore very different. MR. BENTINCK, observing that this was a large sum of money, asked how it was to be laid out, and to what purpose it was proposed that the Chapter House, when restored, should be applied? MR. BERESFORD HOPE thought the Vote was a very moderate one, for the restoration of perhaps the most beautiful and venerable of our ecclesiastical buildings a building in which that House had sat for 300 out of its 600 years, and which was therefore, as none other could be, identified with both Church and State. The work of restoring it was promoted by Dean Trench and now by Dean Stanley, and it would, he thought, be a crying scandal if Parliament refused to carry that work into effect. GENERAL DUNNE wished to know to whom the Chapter House belonged. MR. COWPER said, it was the property of the Government, into whose hands it had come after the dissolution of the monasteries, when it was taken possession of VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] tion of the new building in Fetter Lane it was no longer required for that purpose, and it was thought desirable to restore the building. M BENTINCK asked, to what use it was intended to devote the building when restored? Was it to be given back to the Abbey, and who was the architect to be employed in its restoration ? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER replied, that the Government deemed it to be their duty when asking the House from time to time to vote money for the construction of new buildings of befitting splendour not to lay themselves open to the charge of being guilty of waste, and barbarism by allowing one of the most beautiful edifices ever erected to remain unrestored to a state worthy of its origin, its authors, and the period to which it belonged. The Government had not entered upon the consideration of the use to which the building might be applied-and they now only asked the House to recognize the propriety of its restoration-and the House would be competent to pronounce any opinion it might please as to the use to which the building should hereafter be put. The architect to be employed was Mr. Scott, who, as the Committee was well aware, had devoted much of his time to bey-which for many years had occupied the acquisition of a knowledge of the Abthe first place in his mind-and everything connected with it, and whose appointment, therefore, must be regarded as highly satisfactory. Vote agreed to. (4.) £25,000, to complete the sum for Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland. (5.) £20,000, to complete the sum for Rates for Government Property. (6.) £2,500, Metropolitan Fire Brigade. (7.) £63,000, to complete the sum for Harbours of Refuge. (8.) £31,111, to complete the sum for Holyhead and Portpatrick Harbours, &c. SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN took occasion to say that several complaints had been made of the irregularity of the Irish mails between London and Dublin, and also of the high rate of the fares charged between the two capitals, which were only a few shillings less than those charged be. tweeen London and Cork. The contractors for the former service saved, he believed, H £20,000 a year, owing to their being able to evade the payment of the fines to which they were liable for non-punctuality in the performance of their contract, owing to the fact that the Harbour at Holyhead was not completed, and it was of importance, therefore, to know when the works would be finished and when the contract held by the service would expire. MR. CHILDERS said, he could not say exactly at that moment when the contract would terminate. He had been in communication with the contractors with the view of fixing upon a proper system of penalties, and he hoped to make some arrangements on the subject which would be satisfactory. As to the works at Holyhead harbour their construction was attended with considerable difficulty. Of late there had been successful endeavours to carry out the contracts. GENERAL DUNNE hoped that in future good bargains would be made for the public, and that fines would be inflicted upon both the railway and the marine company for non-fulfilment of their respective contracts. Many works had been carried out for the purpose of facilitating landing, but he did not look upon them as permanent, as most likely they would be swept away some time or another; and, in fact, vessels moored to them were in danger every stormy night. Vote agreed to. (10.) £1,571, to complete the sum for New Record Buildings, Dublin. GENERAL DUNNE observed, that these buildings were very nearly completed. It was very important that the records should be got in at once, and, therefore, he hoped everything would be done to carry out that object. MR. CHILDERS could assure the hon. and gallant Member that everything that the Treasury could do to forward the com. pletion of the buildings had been and should be done. Vote agreed to. (11.) £7,000, Queen's University (Ireland) Buildings. In reply to a Question from General DUNNE, MR. CHILDERS said, that some difficulty had occurred in obtaining a desirable site for the erection of these buildings. The Government had asked for such a sum as would be necessary to carry out the building when a proper site was obtained. Vote agreed to. (12.) £5,000, Ulster Canal. MEMBER, MR. CHILDERS said, that the law had imposed upon Government the duty of repairing the canal, but had not directed in what manner they were to dispose of it (9.) £68,663, to complete the sum for when the repairs were completed. When Public Buildings, Ireland. GENERAL DUNNE wished to call atten tion to the small sum that was expended in Ireland for Parks and other public works. He admitted that the agricultural districts were equally neglected in this respect. SIR COLMAN O’LOGHLEN asked the Attorney General for Ireland whether there was any intention on the part of Government to erect a new Probate Court in Dublin? The question had been put by the hon. Member for Sligo to the Attorney General for Ireland last Session, and the reply was that the matter was then under the consideration of Government. He wished to know if any steps had been taken in the matter. The existing Probate Court was universally condemned by the Judges, the bar, and the public. MR. CHILDERS, in the absence of the Attorney General for Ireland, could not give a full reply to the question. Vote agreed to. completed it would have either to be sold or transferred to the counties. He exwould shortly be come to in reference to it. pected, however, that some arrangement Vote agreed to. (13.) £33,160, to complete the sum for Lighthouses Abroad. (14.) £2,000, Isle of Man Lunatic Asylum. CLASS II.-SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS. (15.) £53,421, to complete the sum for the Houses of Parliament. MR. AYRTON observed that, notwithstanding the enormous expenditure for coals for the Houses of Parliament, the House of Commons remained about the worst ventilated room in which he ever had the good or ill fortune to sit. The atmosphere was particularly cold when it should be warm and was particularly warm when it should be cool. The bad effect of the air upon Members was such that they (18.) £47,840, to complete the sum for the Foreign Office. (19.) £23,124, to complete the sum for the Colonial Office. (20.) £14,739, to complete the sum for the Privy Council Office. (21.) £48,285, to complete the sum for the Board of Trade, &c. (22.) £1,938, to complete the sum for the Privy Seal Office. (23.) £6,007, to complete the sum for the Civil Service Commission. (24.) £14,558, to complete the sum for the Paymaster General's Office. (25.) £3,558, to complete the sum for the Exchequer (London). (26.) £24,226, to complete the sum for Office of Works and Public Buildings. (27.) £20,815, to complete the sum for Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues. had continually to leave the House, and "a House of Commons headache" had become almost proverbial. That headache was supposed by some to be produced by the amount of gas burnt in the building, but the cause of this distressing malady was that the cold air was pumped in on the feet and legs, by which process the blood was forced into the head and the result was a violent headache. It was useless to have his seat pasted up and made comfortable, as the rush for seats in the new House of Commons was so great that a comfortable seat would be sure to be seized on. Hon. Members were obliged to leave their places to go and stand by the fire to warm themselves. That had been the state of things for the first two months of the Session ever since he had been in that House. The Speaker had, he supposed, succumbed at last to these evils, and it was to be hoped that something would now be done to remedy them. Those who sat on the TreaIn reply to a Question from Mr. GOLDNEY, sury Bench were, of course, not so much MR. CHILDERS said, it was the wish of afflicted by these inconveniences, because the Government as far as possible to subthey seemed to be so very crowded that stitute payment by salary instead of by they kept each other warm-to say nothing bill to the solicitors employed in this deof the effect of official zeal and other con- partment, as being a more economical arsiderations which he need not more parti-rangement. cularly mention. But those who sat below the gangway suffered far more seriously; and before they met again in another Session the ventilation of the House ought to be placed in a more satisfactory condition. The system of lighting that House was also defective, and it contrasted unfavourably with the mode adopted in the other House of Parliament. In the ceiling there was a dull, opaque light, between which and the House a screen was interposed, so as to produce an atmosphere like that of London streets on a dismal November day. That was a state of things disgraceful to those who were responsible for it. Vote agreed to. (28.) £16,119, to complete the sum for the Public Record Office. (29.) £222,984, to complete the sum for the Poor Law Commissions. MR. GOLDNEY thought that the sums allowed to the Inspectors for travelling expenses-£600 each per annum-were excessive. Considering the nature of the duties performed, he believed that, as a rule, the visit of an Inspector to a workhouse took place about once in two years. MR. CHILDERS said, that when he first saw the amounts placed under that head he held an opinion similar to that which had fallen from the hon. Member for Chippenham. He found, however, on inquiry, that the amounts were perfectly justifiable, and, not as he at first supposed, excessive. MR. CHILDERS had never known till then the meaning of the phrase as to some hon. Members being "out in the cold; "Chippenham. but no doubt the complaints which the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had just made would receive the attention of the officials charged with the ventilation and other arrangements of the House. Care would be taken to communicate with them on these matters. Vote agreed to. (16.) £38,432, to complete the sum for the Treasury. (17.) £19,471, to complete the sum for the Home Office. Vote agreed to. (30.) £36,182, to complete the sum for the Mint, including Coinage. (31.) £29,462, to complete the sum for Inspectors of Factories, Fisheries, &c. (32.) £4,242, to complete the sum for Exchequer and other Offices in Scotland. (33.) £4,413, to complete the sum for Household of the Lord Lieutenant, Ireland. MR. GOLDNEY remarked that the work of the Commission for which the Vote was required had virtually come to an end, except that it had occasionally to supply information to the public. He thought the Vote was, therefore, excessive. MR. SCOURFIELD recommended an increase in the sums charged by the Office. An eminent person connected with the Court of Chancery had expressed surprise to him at the moderation of their fees on an occasion when he had effected an exchange of land through the Commission. He had also heard that the Commissioners were very deficient in fire-proof rooms. MR. CHILDERS said, he was not aware that the Commissioners were deficient in fire-proof rooms; and with respect to the objection raised to the following Vote, he explained that the whole amount was paid back into the Exchequer every year. Vote agreed to. (38.) £8,890, to complete the sum for Inclosure and Drainage Acts, Imprest Expenses. (39.) £49,796, to complete the sum for the General Register Offices. (40.) £11,253, to complete the sum for the National Debt Office. (41.) £2,935, to complete the sum for Public Works Loan and West India Islands Relief Commissions. (42.) £9,735, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commissions, &c. MR. SCOURFIELD was about to make some observations, when an hon. Member moved that the House be counted. More than forty Members were, however, speedily gathered in the House, and the hon. Member proceeded to state that he had heard very general dissatisfaction expressed at the fact that the Board of Lunacy Commissioners was not directly responsible to the House. He had noticed that any department so situated invariably became unpopular. It was so with the Poor Law Board before the present arrangement was come to. SIR BROOK BRIDGES said, at this meeting, attended by chairmen from all parts of the country, there was not found one to defend the constitution of the Board; and he thought the subject should receive the attention of the Government. MR. CHILDERS said, that the whole question of the constitution of the Lunacy Commissions for the three kingdoms was deserving of consideration. In Ireland the Lunacy Commission took charge of the administration of lunatics altogether. The Scotch system had not been long enough in operation to enable the Government to say whether it was better than the others, but in a short time it would probably be the duty of the Government to make some inquiry into the subject. Vote agreed to. (43.) £223, to complete the sum for the Superintendent of Roads, South Wales. MR. WHITE said, he believed these roads had been taken under the charge of the Government, and the tolls on them were abolished in consequence of the Rebecca riots. He wondered whether any Rebecca riots in the neighbourhood of London would have the same effect. He wished to know what proportion the costs of inspection were to the whole sum disbursed? MR. CHILDERS was not in a position to give the exact percentage, but it was extremely small. MR. SCOURFIELD bore testimony to the excellent way in which the South Wales roads were managed, first by Colonel Harness, and more recently by General Wrotham. Vote agreed to. (44.) £1,404, to complete the sum for Registrars of Friendly Societies. MR. REARDEN wished to know how it was that the Registrar General of England had a salary of £1,000 a year, while the Registrars General of Scotland and Ireland had only salaries amounting to £150 a year each. MR. CHILDERS explained that the duties of the Registrars General of Scot land and Ireland were little more than nominal, while every one knew that the duties of the Registrar General of England were varied and onerous. Vote agreed to. (45.) £13,673, to complete the sum for the Charity Commission. of them was the gratification of an extremely idle vanity. SIR BROOK BRIDGES said, that he thought few hon. Members would coincide in the views of the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down as to the character of English charities. He believed that those charities constituted one of the most magnificent features of the country. He experienced the greatest possible gratitude towards those who had in former times set aside portions of their wealth for the public benefit, and he did not think it unreasonable that a CommisMR. GOLDNEY said, as far as he knew sion should be appointed in order to check the duties of this Commission were not very the management of charitable bequests. onerous. They consisted principally in re- It was to the interest of this great counceiving reports from the managers of the try that such funds should be properly advarious charities, and in granting or refus-ministered, and he believed that the Charity ing applications for the exchange of lands. Commissioners exercised a salutary inThis was another instance of a case where fluence on the trustees. a Commission was much needed in the first instance and did good work, but which was continued after all need for it had ceased. MR. ACLAND said, he had in various ways, especially in connection with the work of education, been brought into contact with the Charity Commissioners, and he differed from the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. He believed that their duties were very heavy, and required great tact, skill, and industry. For instance, they were often called to settle a scheme of education for a school, or for the details of management of another charity, in cases which were not contentious, and the decision required great care and deliberation. He had been connected with a charity school in his own county where reference was made to them, and the correspondence in that case was exceedingly voluminous, and was conducted by the Commissioners with great punctuality and attention. MR. AYRTON stated that the question under the consideration of the Committee was discussed some years ago, when the Government promised to bring forward a scheme by which charitable funds should be subject to a certain percentage, so as to cover the expense of the Commission. It was difficult to understand why a Commission instituted for the purpose of ministering to the follies of people who in former times left money for charity should be maintained at the public expense. The money these people had left ought to defray all the expenses connected with its administration. Those charitable funds had no right to receive one farthing from the public Exchequer, for the origin of most MR. POLLARD-URQUHART questioned the propriety of burdening the country with the cost of a Commission for the purpose of looking after the property of any individual; and he observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had shown that it was very doubtful whether these charities did more harm or more good. MR. CHILDERS said, he would not enter into the question whether the charities referred to were good or bad, but he would state that the charges of the Commission, when the duties discharged by it were fully considered, did not appear excessive. With regard to the desirability of recovering the expense of the Commission by charges on charitable funds, he thought that was a question worthy of consideration, and he would ascertain what inquiry had been made by the Government into that matter previous to his entering the office he now held. MR. GOLDNEY thought that more Commissioners were employed than were necessary to discharge the work devolving upon them. MR. CHILDERS did not concur with the hon. Member for Chippenham, and stated again that the charges of the Commission were not excessive. Vote agreed to. (46.) £4,835, to complete the sum for the Local Government Act Office, &c. (47.) £1,399, to complete the sum for the Landed Estates Record Offices, London and Dublin. |