sentence and not the warrant, which according to their view would be an aggravation of the punishment, and said—

cide with those of men who hold that pun- nothing of dignity, impressiveness, or ishment has only two objects-to deter and solemnity; but that ribaldry, violence, and to reform the criminal. It appears to me depravity were its prominent features. that there is a third and very legitimate Who would dream of taking anybody to a element of punishment upon which society public execution as a grand moral example, has a right to insist, and that is the retri- or with the expectation of seeing anything butive element. You deal with men like that was not essentially repulsive? There mere animals if you shut up a murderer, was, he believed, no reason why, without like a tiger, to prevent his killing other any change of the law, the time and place persons, and with a hope in the man's case of holding executions might not be changed, -which, of course, cannot exist in that of and that under the existing jurisdiction. A the tiger-that he may ultimately become remarkable case on this point occurred in penitent and reformed. It certainly does 1769. Two men, Doyle and Pulline, were appear to me that society is, to a certain sentenced to be executed at the usual place extent, a minister of Divine justice in in- of execution, which at that time was at flicting punishment for the crime. [The Tyburn; but the sheriffs received a warrant BISHOP of OXFORD: Hear, hear!] I am directing them to execute the prisoners at glad to find that in that view I have the the most convenient place near Bethnal support of some distinguished Prelates. Green Church-probably the place where There are other cases besides those men- the crime had been committed. The shertioned in this Bill-cases of persons resist-iffs conceived that they must follow the ing lawful authority, and it appears to me that persons who commit murder in resisting such lawful authority and in furtherance of objects that are unlawful, should be liable to the punishment of death. These, however, I apprehend, are questions of detail with which my noble and learned Friend upon the Woolsack will be willing to deal in Committee. With regard to the holding of executions not in private, but in presence only of the lawfully authorized ministers of the law, I can have no doubt that the course which it is proposed by this Bill to adopt is the right one. Whatever the original idea that was associated with public executions, in practice there can be no doubt that they tend to brutalize the population. At the same time that spectacles such as these are withdrawn from the public gaze, there is, I think, great force in the suggestion that some external sign or symbol should be employed to indicate when the execution is actually taking place. Coupled with the knowledge of what is going on, the tolling of a bell or the hoisting of a black flag would, I believe, make a powerful impression on the imagination of the people.

LORD HOUGHTON said, that having brought this subject under the consideration of another Assembly twenty years ago, he might perhaps be allowed to address a few observations to their Lordships. In the first place, he naturally felt deep satisfaction that the principles involved in this measure had received even a partial acceptance. From various executions which he had witnessed he had returned with the conviction that there was about the scene

The men were ac

"If this were permitted, the Recorder might change the place of execution to Newgate Street, or even to Newgate itself, and so do away with the boasted usage of public executions, not less satisfactory for the security of the public, than advantageous as a public example." An eminent lawyer of that day gave it as his opinion, that if the change was not material it should be complied with; and the Judges to whom the question was referred, were of opinion that the time and place were in law no part of the judgment, and that the Recorder's warrant was a lawful authority to the sheriffs as to the time and place of execution. cordingly executed. Tyburn, so long a scandal to the metropolis, with its disgraceful and melancholy story of parading through the streets and stopping at publichouses, had ceased to be; but it was a curious thing that at that time the sheriffs fancied the publicity of the procession to Tyburn was necessary to the security of the subject; that soon afterwards the scene of execution was transferred from Tyburn to the front of Newgate, and would now, he trusted, be transferred from the outside to the inside its walls. The Motion which he brought forward twenty years ago was defeated by Gentlemen entertaining views that in the present day appeared almost as untenable. If the prognostications of the noble and learned Lord should be realized, and if the changes in the law should have the effect of modifying public opinion on the subject of capital punish

THE EARL OF CARDIGAN said, that considering the disgust which had been shown at flogging in the army-a punishment which under proper restrictions he considered absolutely necessary for the maintenance of discipline-the suggestion that criminals guilty of murder should be sentenced to perpetual imprisonment, but should be periodically brought out and publicly whipped, was one of the most extraordinary, the most shocking, and the most revolting he had ever heard. LORD BELPER gave his cordial assent to the Bill, though he could not concur with his noble Friends who wished to abolish capital punishment altogether. He agreed that the definition of murder required revision. That a man who fired off a gun with the intention of killing a fowl, and who accidentally killed a man, should, under certain circumstances, be held to be guilty of murder, was discreditable to our law.

ment, he for one should not regret such a | The Bill before the House would, he beresult. He had for a long time held the lieved, effect a great improvement in the same opinions on the subject to which the law, and he hoped the noble and learned noble and learned Lord had given expres- Lord on the Woolsack would accede to the sion, and he had no doubt that those opi- suggestion which had been made by the nions were gradually making way among right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Oxford), the reasonable and religious people of this and provide that there should be some country, and that the obstacles-and there public sign whenever an execution was were obstacles which presented them- taking place within the walls of a prison. selves to the abolition of punishment by death would be removed. How long ago was it, he would ask, since that punishment was deemed to be necessary in the case of political offences for the stability of society? Their Lordships must recollect the course which was taken on the subject by an eminent French statesman in the midst of the confusion consequent on the establishment of the French Republic in 1848. The first important measure which was at that time introduced by the Provisional Government was one declaring the punishment of death for political offences to be abolished. The great contest, he might add, which had recently taken place on the other side of the Atlantic had closed unstained by a single political execution. Such a thing would have seemed impossible to statesmen a hundred years ago, and he hoped that before long a state of things which now seemed impossible to their Lordships would be realized. The truth was that when they came to consider this question of death they got beyond the category of punishment. Death was the punishment of all of us and no doubt if people would but think of it in time it would deter them from many crimes. When the time arrived when a change should come over the mind of this country with respect to the necessity of inflicting capital punishment their Lordships would, he had no doubt, find that society could subsist without that which was now deemed to be required for its security. He might also state that it was remarked by those who were best acquainted with the habits of the mass of the people, that no class of men spoke so lightly with regard to the future as those who had entered on a criminal life. It was said by Mr. Edward Gibbon Wakefield, who was a good authority on the point, that he had known men, who during the honest period of their lives were men of considerable reflection, become, the moment they had entered on a criminal career, so entirely occupied with the present as altogether to lose sight of ulterior and higher objects, and to cast away all thoughts of a death on the scaffold.

But so far from the Bill improving the legal definition of the offence, it seemed to him calculated to make the law still more uncertain.

LORD ROMILLY said, he had never suggested that murderers should periodically receive corporal punishment; on the contrary, he was in favour of the abolition of corporal punishment. All that he had said was intended as an answer to those who suggested that it was impossible to devise any special penalty for murder short of death.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY said, he had some hopes that the Bill would do a good deal towards the protection of infant life. The protection which it would afford would, however, be imperfect unless it were supplemented by a collateral measure, taking cognizance of the number of stillborn children. That number was at present very large amounting to several thousand-every year, and as they were buried without registration or inquiry there were strong grounds for believing that a considerable portion of those who were placed under that category were actually murdered. Children said to be still-born were put in the hands of the sexton, were

and as the case was still the subject of inquiry, it would be better not to mention the particular criminal's name-that from every one of those persons, and they were very numerous, he had heard but one opinion-namely, that so fearful a criminal ought to be executed.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR explained, that when he said that no crime should be capitally punished except murder, he did not, of course, mean to exclude high trea

son.

After a few words from Lord DEN

Motion agreed to: Bill read 2 accord

TION BILL-(No. 41.)-(The Lord Houghton.)

COMMITTEE. REPORT.

House in Committee (according to Or

der).

buried, and no record of them was kept. | Only that morning a remarkable testimony The subject was one which had been very was given to him on that point by a man much under his own consideration and that who held in his house three times a week of others, and it was, he thought, possible meetings of all the thieves and disorderly that a measure might be framed by which persons that he could get together, in the accurate information with respect to the hope of doing them some good in a relinumber of such children might be secured. gious or moral sense. That man told him As to executions taking place within the walls of a prison, he was of opinion that it would be, on the whole, an excellent arrangement. It was, however, he believed, the fact, that although the scene round the scaffold when a person was about to be executed was usually one of noise and disturbance and obscenity, the result of the assembling together of the lowest class of "roughs," yet a large number of persons came away deeply impressed on such occasions. Yet he was satisfied that, on the whole, the execution of the prisoners within the walls of the prison would have a much MAN, more salutary aud deterrent effect. He trusted that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, when he came to enactingly. that clause, would take care to provide that there should be ample testimony to QUALIFICATION FOR OFFICES ABOLIthe fact of the execution; because he was quite sure that the great mass of the people would be anxious that some of their own class, even, should be admitted to see that the execution had been duly carried out. He thought such a system would have the best effect on the criminals themselves. He did not believe that the sense of shame had much influence on that class; indeed, he was convinced that in the great class from which murderers were taken the sense of shame was wholly extinct; and such men often looked forward to the time when they would appear on the scaffold and publicly exhibit their hardened state of mind to a crowd of their companions. But if these men knew that they would be executed within the walls of the gaol, and that they would have no opportunity of making such an exhibition on the scaffold, the impression produced on their minds would, he believed, be very serious; and he was sure that if the execution were attended by the tolling of the bell, the display of the black flag, and similar accompaniments, the imagination of the people outside would be deeply impressed. With regard to the feeling of the criminal class itself as to the justice of the punishment of death, he could state-and many persons still more conversant with that class than he was would bear him out-that the feeling among it was, that murder should be expiated by the death of the murderer. VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.

LORD HOUGHTON, in moving that the House go into Committee on this Bill, said, he thought it would be better, after the favourable reception given to the measure by their Lordships at a previous stage, if it were allowed to proceed in its present form. The question of a re-construction of the oaths and declarations taken and made by municipal functionaries might perhaps be one very well worth considering; but it was not necessary, and it might not be convenient, to consider it in connection with that particular Bill.

THE EARL OF DERBY regretted that the noble Lord had not acted on the suggestion which he had thrown out to him. the other day, because at present they were legislating in a very slovenly mode in regard to the oaths taken by municipal officers. The oaths taken by Members of the Legislature having now been reduced to one plain, simple, and uniform shape, he thought a similar course ought to be followed in respect to the oaths taken by municipal officers and other persons. There was one part of the Bill which extended its provisions to any declarations taken under any other Act than those specified. he thought very objectionable.

K

This

Petitions were presented after the last -was that those to whom he applied told general election against both the Gentle him they had done better on the other men who were then returned, and the side. He (Mr. Bouverie) thought the Committee appointed to inquire into the Committee-certainly he himself-had a matter of that petition found that one of sort of impression from the tenour of the the Members had been guilty of a breach evidence that there was a general system of the Act against corrupt practices, hav- of corruption, and they were informed ing made an offer of employment to one of that the market price of votes in Totnes, the voters, with the view of influencing which was quoted quite like a share-list his vote; and they had therefore no alter- on the Stock Exchange, was higher at the native but to report him guilty of a breach last election than it had ever been before. of the Act and declare his election void. Screech was asked whether on previous They also declared the other guilty of elections, when he was employed by the bribery and unseated him. The evidence Liberal side, money had been going which satisfied the Committee that they to any amount? Oh yes, he said, the had reason to believe corrupt practices amount was fearful; but it was never extensively prevailed at Totnes was not so large as at the last election. He was direct evidence brought before them to given to understand that the market prove a general system of bribery; in price of a vote at Totnes during the fact, the cases of bribery brought by pc-last election was something like £200. tition against the sitting Members were few originally, and substantially failed of proof. They were, strictly speaking, offers of bribery to voters who did not vote for the sitting Members, or the voters when produced swore they did not take bribes, though they had stated on other occasions they did. Therefore the evidence was not of a very complete or conclusive character. But a very curious and he believed almost unpredecented thing occurred in the Committee. A witness was produced for the purpose of contradicting one of the previous witnesses, and to prove that he had said he had had offers of money. That witness was named Screech; and on his cross-examination it appeared that he had been largely engaged by the opposite party in corrupting voters at Totnes. He appealed to the Chairman whether he was bound to answer the questions put to him. The Chairman told him he was bound to answer, because by a recent wholesome change of the law, a witness was not at liberty to screen himself from answering questions, the Committee having the power to give him a certificate which would exonerate him from any penalty. Screech had therefore to make a clean breast of it, and he told the Committee that he had been engaged on previous elections for the Liberal party, and at the last election for the Conservative party, to go about the borough offering to bribe, and bribing the electors. He admitted that he had applied to forty, and he believed that he had bribed twelve or fourteen. The reason he gave for not being more successful-and there was no reason to doubt his statement

He was bound to say from the way in which this evidence was given, Screech's evidence appeared to be generally truthful. The witness was produced on the petitioners' side; and the opposing counsel, while seeking to discredit his testimony, had of course no interest in proving the general prevalence of corruption; the main facts were consequently elicited by questions from the Committee, who, having got upon the scent, felt it their duty to follow it up; but, as the House must be aware, they had but feeble means of getting out the whole truth. They had also before them a man named Harris, who was the witness that proved that Mr. Pender, the late sitting Member, had offered him a situation if he would not take an active part against him; and on this evidence, in fact, the Committee unseated the sitting Member. He was what would be generally called a respectable man in appearance and occupation, and though an attempt was made in cross-examination to throw doubt on his veracity, the Committee believed him to be a credible witness. This witness Harris said he had known Totnes from his youth; and he expressed his belief that there were not fifty electors in the borough who were not influenced, directly or indirectly, by money considerations. Harris calculated that there were seventy-five electors of Conservative and fifty of Liberal politics who were accessible to direct bribes. This was Harris' estimate of the political virtue and morality of Totnes; and the Committee unanimously arrived at the conclusion that there was strong reason to believe that bribery had extensively prevailed in the borough at the